I would vote for AOC in a heartbeat. I am tired of old men ruining the country, and tired of Israel making us their errand boy.
As far as “experience”, when did that really matter? Obama didn’t have much foreign policy experience either and he was 1000x better than this current troglodyte pedophile.
To me the whole foreign policy angle is a non-sequitur. Unless an candidate has been a senator/congressman for several terms, it doesn’t really apply. And how many presidents were that? Some of the best presidents had zilch in foreign policy experience and weren’t an elected official for much before they became president.
Obama (one half-finished term as senator). Clinton (Arkansas AG and gov…hardly a place that had any need of foreign policy). Bush Jr (gov of Texas). Reagan (gov of Cali).
Not to imply all were great, but they definitely had, at least from our current perspective, a rational viewpoint where they thought from their POV that they were doing the right thing for the country, instead of this chaotic, narcissistic, demagogue, corrupt stupidity.
At this point a gerbil with schizophrenia would be a better option than Trump.
I WAS going to Vote for AOC because she Represents America instead of Israel until all I saw Day Old Accounts telling me Newsom was Better! NEXT time AOC NEXT Time!
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is young and lacks experience, especially in foreign policy. But that may be exactly the kind of person we need as president: someone relatively untainted by both the DNC and the GOP, and someone who has not spent decades being shaped by corporate lobbying and the protection of profit margins.
We need leadership that is still capable of idealism, somebody willing to push for the kind of social programs this country increasingly needs if we want to reverse the direction things are heading right now.
AOC absolutely could be elected. A 2028 presidential run is not some impossible fantasy. The deciding factor is simple: younger voters would actually need to show up and vote in meaningful numbers.
Young? I’d take young over dementia riddled. Besides, this country desperately needs fresh leadership and engagement from people who are younger.
If Emanuel Macron became French President at 39, I’m sure there’s no issue with AOC being 38 by 2028.
I like AOC. I would vote for AOC. AOC will not win POTUS. We’re tried this twice already, and a woman who has had years of non-stop character assassination attempts lobbed at her is not going to win. It’s terrible that sexism and lies play such a big role, but that’s where we are as a nation. Dems had the right idea in 2020 setting up the first woman president via VP. Then they did the worst job possible of handling any potential transition, because of course they did.
tHiS cOuNtRy Is SeXiSt
points to boring corpo centrist candidates who happen to be women
You’re getting downvotes, but you’re right. She’s not ready. A Senate seat first.
The reality is she will run as an independent, split the vote, Donnie Junior wins.
Trump didn’t have a senate seat first.
There have been young presidents before
I think the young will come out and vote for her
The vote for the dems is already split. The DNC wont abandon AIPAC’s genocide support-- and they dont have enough voters to win doing that. Same as last time. Until they learn to have principles and stand up for their voters instead of for donors they will continue to lose what should be easy elections to idiots and criminals.
I think she’s a good representative as in she didn’t get corrupt and votes the right way most of the times but I’m yet to see any proof she would be good president. I keep seeing videos about AOC “crushing” people in hearings and they always disappoint. She struggles to explain her ideas or deliver convincing message and she’s simply bad at confronting people. I think she’s over-hyped because all other candidates suck and she would get crushed in presidential elections. People really need to start looking for a candidate that can actually win.
Just wait until the DNC tanks her like they did Bernie.
Should be green. Both to represent the source material, and the clean break we need from the DNC donorcrats.
Yea, its about time for the experiment to end. The results are failure.
I mean, in theory, there’s nothing stopping someone from running for president from inside a jail cell. Front porch campaigns are a thing.
Luigi will be 35 on May 6, 2033. Which means the first election he could run in will be 2036. So, yeah better hope he gets off the death penalty at least. I doubt they would let him drag his appeals out that long.
But, let’s say he gets life instead. He could conceivably run for president in 2036. He could in theory run a front porch campaign for president from a jail cell. And precedent has been established that if he were elected, he would essentially be exempt from the enforcement of criminal judgments against him. (This was established even well before Trump came around.) So he could walk right out of that cell.
Alternatively, if you want him out the fastest, the most realistic, but though still long-shot option would be for some progressive firebrands to run for the presidency and governorships of New York and Pennsylvania, promising as one of their platform planks to deliver him a full pardon.
Eugene Debs got a million votes from a prison cell.
I hope not
America isn’t ready for competent leadership
This lady got me drunk on margaritas in between classes when I was a student at Parsons. We talked about Bernie Sanders and politics and she was cool as hell.
I will definitely vote for her if she runs for president.
I wish I drank those margaritas that AOC cooked up
It was, like, a year or two later when she ran for office, and I was like… I know her… But then it took me a little while to put two and two together and remember where I knew her from. It blew my goddamn mind, lol.
Unfortunately, I didn’t live in her constituency, so I couldn’t vote for her at the time. But I did live in Hakeem Jeffries constituency, so I voted for him.
Sadly, I feel there are still too many bigots and sexists in the US who cannot bring themselves to vote for a woman, esp. one who isn’t ‘white enough’. That, piled on top of the ‘establishment’ Dem factions that will do everything possible to subvert a campaign… which will let the right-wingers/fascists drive right up the middle again.
Feel free to prove me wrong, USA. Please.
the ‘establishment’ Dem factions that will do everything possible to subvert a campaign
What you’re doing now is part of how the establishment subverts campaigns. They always selectively apply the ‘electability’ argument only to progressives and insurgents while embracing identity politics for their own candidates. Whenever a progressive of any minority group runs the nation “isn’t ready,” but when it’s one of theirs “it’s time.”
When the DNC runs candidates who’s campaign promises are status quo, corporate subsidies and serving Israel then yeah, the bigot and sexist vote becomes significant. People need to stop using that as a condemnation of the country as a whole. It’s a condemnation of the two party system, a corrupt or derelict Democratic party or a “democracy” which is no longer functioning.
Meanwhile candidates who actually prioritize American voters can win without the help of bigots. Obama proved this back in 2008 and Zohran has proved things have only gotten better. Not only did he win without the bigot vote but without all the other piece of shit voters who showed up for Cuomo in the general election.
Harris was a garbage candidate. Biden was a garbage candidate. Hillary Clinton was a garbage candidate. American voters as a whole are not responsible for the abhorrent behavior by the DNC and assholes who vote for people like Biden and Cuomo in Democratic primaries.
But the reason they put garbage candidates forward is because they regard them as a safe bet, not too radical for some, not too weak for others. … they may be right… it depends whether the vaguely inoffensive option results in the largest number of votes overall or whether a boldly progressive candidate with strong support of fewer voters gives them the better result. Dems always go with the safe option.
Well yeah, last time Americans elected a socialist they kept electing him til he died. Can’t have that happen again. They aren’t going with safe they are going with what they are financially incentivised to do. Look at the funding for democratic candidates, that’s their constituency. You’re projecting your own morals on them, they don’t actually care about what’s good for the country
FDR wasn’t a socialist, he was a man who understood that if he didn’t offer the people a better deal then they’d look to revolution to get it. It pissed off the rich and powerful, but ultimately he was doing what he believed necessary to preserve capitalism.
Copy paste from elsewhere in the thread.
You seem well-meaning, but the racism/sexism card is way overplayed at this point in the game. The two examples DNC sympathisers point to for why an AOC run is a bad idea both lost not because they were women, but because they were utterly terrible politicians. I wasn’t around for Hillary so I can’t go into too much detail, but Harris specifically did her utmost best to destroy every single ounce of goodwill she had. And as for the racism, well, America did overwhelmingly elect Obama in 2008. Even on the far right you see MAGA elect women and minority politicians they agree with (see: MTG), so there’s no way the everyone left of Reagan coalition wouldn’t be able to elect AOC due to sexism. It’s just a complete and utter non-issue.
You say that, but I personally know people who voted for Trump over Harris specifically because she was a woman. I personally know people who voted for Trump over Clinton for the exact same reason.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with AOC myself and would vote for her, but to pretend that it’s a “non-issue” assumes that the average person doesn’t care. Many people do actually care, and ignoring the existence of those people is poor strategy. Maybe I’m overestimating the number of people who care, maybe not, but it is unfortunately a real concern that won’t magically go away by pretending people, as a whole, are more enlightened than that.
I mean sure you can find people who think or do basically anything; I haven’t seen any evidence that this is a significant group of people, even though if it was it’d show up on polls before and after the election. I’d also bet good money no such evidence exists, because if it did libs wouldn’t shut up about it. Meanwhile plenty of evidence exists that the most significant factors in Harris’s loss were the genocide and her being a rightwing ghoul.
And people voted for Trump because he’s rich. Does that mean we only need to run rich candidates. Fuck no. There isn’t a large enough group of people who would otherwise vote for someone like AOC who wouldn’t because she’s a woman. Either her positions are strong enough to win or they aren’t. The woman thing is bullshit, and it’s just people trying to push for a more generic candidate that doesn’t represent us.
I personally know people who voted for Trump over Kamala specifically because she was a woman. I personally know people who voted for Trump over Harris for the exact same reason
Uh… did you mean to say “Hillary” up there at some point? Because “Kamala” and “Harris” are the same person…
Except when Obama was elected the right lost their ever loving minds. And Fox went off the deep end. The entire right wing propaganda machine has gone nuts for the last 18 years and unfortunately it worked. Acting like it’s currently the environment of 2008 is blind.
As a leftist I have a completely different take.
Obama’s campaign made me realize what it was like to have a politician work for my vote. All that “hope and change” rhetoric actually worked on me. Somewhere in his eight years in office I realized he was full of shit but it gave me optimism for the future. That optimism blossomed as I listened to Sanders speeches.
So when Hillary Clinton came along and started setting herself in opposition to Sanders and ultimately defeating him I realized Hillary Clinton and the entire Democratic party think they can just assume I’ll support them so long as they run against a Republican who is much much worse.
They’re wrong.
Republicans haven’t gotten stronger. The Democratic party has intentionally weakened itself because rather than serving the American people they want to serve corporations, Israel and their own egos.
I’ll support them so long as they run against a Republican who is much much worse.
As a vulnerable minority (trans) being targeted for active genocide by the Right, I really wish that WAS enough for Democrats to get elected
That didn’t respond to anything I wrote. The right wing media went nuts and it worked. For 18 years. We can’t act like those 18 years of propaganda didn’t change anything because it did.
But anyway to respond to what you wrote, I think the best way to address this is you’re looking at the parties, while I’m looking at the votes.
Hilary said she’d a map room to (read, go to war on) fight climate change. The left never came out. Biden went to good old politics. Won. Kamala relied on woman’s rights. The left never came out. Guess what will happen next time? They will not rely on the left. They will go after the center. The center that actually shows up. (Also see my other comment.)
This completely misses the point that Kamala didn’t win a primary. You can’t say “didn’t get support” because she wasn’t “the candidate” in the first plac You’re working really hard to tell this thread why voting is pointless
I wonder why
Me: vote.
You: why are you telling people not to vote?
Unreal.
We’re not talking about the right, though; we’re talking about the left and center. You know, the people who voted for Obama, and who would be expected to vote for a Democratic candidate. Why even care what the right thinks?
Acting like it’s currently the environment of 2008 is blind.
Sure, but that cuts both ways. Just like the right is more fascist today, the left and center-left are more progressive and more willing to listen to radical voices. Your implicit assumption that all of America shifted rightwards doesn’t match up with reality.
My point was about the last 18 years of right wing propaganda. We can’t act like it didn’t happen and that we’re in the same place as 2008.
You don’t have do go very far to find “my dad was the greatest, didn’t care if people were black” to, well, I won’t repeat much of the Qanon. There’s a whole sub for it, remember? QanonCasualties. That’s the point of propaganda, to spread the message, to increase their numbers. And no it doesn’t cut both ways because left media is beholden to the truth, and right wing media can do whatever they want. And they do. And they grow. Most popular “news” source is what? Fox. You are missing everything. Like fucking everything.
This is more of a rant than a response to anything I actually said.
It’s a little disjointed because I edited in the first paragraph, but yes it does respond to what you said.
Do you want a line by line breakdown? Ok.
We’re not talking about the right, though; we’re talking about the left and center.
Agreed. And guess what? The right wing’s propaganda machine has reached the center. That’s the whole point. 18 years of hardcore propaganda has reached the center. That’s the point of propaganda.
You know, the people who voted for Obama,
You don’t have do go very far to find “my dad was the greatest, didn’t care if people were black” EDIT AT ADD: “and voted for Obama”. And those people changed to, well, I won’t repeat much of the Qanon.
There’s a whole sub for it, remember? QanonCasualties. People that were formely center or Obama voters that got suckered in. That’s the point of propaganda, to spread the message, to increase their voters.
Why even care what the right thinks?
The whole point of propaganda is to reach other people. So it’s not what the right thinks, it’s how the people that were formerly center that have been suckered in to the right’s propoganda will vote.
Sure, but that cuts both ways.
No it doesn’t cut both ways because left media is beholden to the truth, and right wing media can do whatever they want. They lie their ass off. They twist. They appeal to easy emotions like fear and anger. The left media can’t do that.
The most popular “news” source is what? Fox.
You are missing everything. Like fucking everything.
You’re the only one talking sense here.
The Right has shifted the overton window so hard to the right that Fascism is a mainstream opinion. Heck it’s considered more rude to question Fascism than it is to question Trans Rights.
Nobody gives a fuck what the right thinks or your fearmongering in favor of it. Knock it off.
You think I’m trying to fearmonger, or that I’m ??? in favor??? of it? Lol no. I’m baffled how you can even read that.
I am observing that the right wing media has been going nuts for the last 18 years. We can’t ignore that. And the whole point is that it’s not limited to the right wing audience, they got their message to the masses.
You make zero sense, and I read this as fear mongering as well
Why are you working so hard to ensure people feel dejected about voting?
Removed by mod
You’re making complete sense here. If Obama had been white, Trump never would have happened. Hell if Hillary had been a man, Trump never would have happened.
This, back in 2008, North Carolina went Blue for Obama. It went red for Romney in 2012. Why?
Well as someone who remembered the Churches pleading with everyone to “Vote for the Mormon over the Muslim” I can tell you.
It’s because the beehive hadn’t been kicked yet. The idea of a black president seemed like a wonderful sign of the progress we made as a nation. When it actually happened, that retroactively became a bridge too far.
There was a silent contract, racists could be polite and civil. A black man could be equal to a white man, as long as everyone silently agreed the white man was “more equal”
When the President was black, well, that was seen as a violation of the social contract. The same people who voted for Obama to show how “Not racist” they were, suddenly became furious that he won. Because the “contract” compelled them to outwardly appear non-racist by voting for a black guy, but when it was “violated” by his election, these same people proudly dropped the Hard R to describe the leader of the free world while watching Fox News.
am I making sense?
I agree, but I put it more down to Fox et al than the social contract.
I would change it to: " The same people who voted for Obama
to show how “Not racist” they were,because they were open to the idea of being not racistsuddenly became furious that he wonwere bombarded by Fox how terrible Obama was and how horrible Democrats were. And they slowly but surely absorbed that message. "Fox went absolutely apeshit after Obama was elected, they wanted to do everything they could to bring him down in any way they could. And their rhetorical techniques are good at appealing to people (inb4 lemmy’s seeming misreading, it’s disgusting, but I observe that it works).
Yes, but also I don’t think the Democrats have any stronger candidate to run against Trump. Most of them can’t even meaningfully speak against Trump. If they run another wishy-washy centrist there’s a much greater chance that they lose to disillusionment yet again. AOC is the closest they have to Bernie Sanders and they’d either be idiots or snakes to not do so. Personally, she’s probably the only potential presidential hopeful out there who I would enthusiastically vote for.
they’d either be idiots or snakes
They have proven themselves at this point to be both.
Yes, but also I don’t think the Democrats have any stronger candidate to run against Republicans.
This is a real problem. Who’s in the national Democratic pipeline? Biden kind of sucked the life out of anyone associated with him - Anthony Blinken? Lloyd Austin? Pete Buttigeig was the closest thing Biden had to an attack dog, but he keeps losing elections and I don’t know what he’s doing now. I thought Katie Porter was cool for a while, but she blew her run for senate and is currently choking on a run for governor of California. Bernie’s too old.
I don’t even know who else is out there.
Tim Walz, maybe, if he quits listening to the neolib assholes giving him shitty advice?
I really wish he hadn’t stopped calling Vance “weird”, that was actually fucking working.
Honestly hunter biden or J.B. Pritzker aka the great khan of Illinois
Both are bought and paid-for zionists.
Illinois-ian here.
We need prizker where he is.
There is such a thing as being promoted out of ones best place.
He’s where he should be.
Came here to say basically this but I want to live in a world where it’s not true, and I actively, knowingly choose willful ignorance. I want her to run, I will vote for her, I will get out the vote for her. I think we have to.
Not to mention all the progressives that won’t vote for her because she’s not progressive enough, or perfectly aligned on every policy.
Hey look it’s another genocide supporter.
Hey look, another moron.
The same progressives encouraging her to run despite her problematic ideology?
In many cases, yes. Progressives are so quick to turn on their own that all it takes is a little Russian or Chinese media manipulation and they forget their goals. it’s already happening
Criticism is not ‘turning on their own.’
If you cannot handle defending your decisions, you don’t belong on the left. Either as a representative or as a member. If you want to vote to send weapons to Israel while they commit one of the worst genocides in history, you will get backlash and demands to defend your actions from any human being that exists.
Yes, I agree. But once we are in the election, we need to support ‘better’. If we keep pushing people against the viable better candidate then, they will lose and we’ll get the much worse maga option.
No.
Period.
That is how fascism happens. ‘Lesser Evilism’ does not work. The current state of the US proves this. It is so easy to just not be evil. So incredibly fucking easy.
Gavin Newsom, for example, will be worse for the average person than Donald Trump. He would be the ‘lesser evil,’ and would probably redirect ICE to only target male immigrants instead of everyone brown and would probably say gays and lesbians are okay while still targeting trans people; but his economic warfare against the working class will be worse, as he’s competent and surrounds himself with competent people.
Allowing people like that, as an example, to exist on the left because Donald Trump exists is like shooting off your toe because you were aiming at your dick. Yeah, it’s kinda better from a deranged viewpoint that ignores everything, but it does not solve the problem.
Or to borrow a phrase, it’s like only feeding bad children to the orphan crushing machine instead of just turning off the orphan crushing machine. No. ‘Better’ is not good enough in this case. Joseph Biden is responsible for at least 200,000 dead children. Every single Biden voter that just insisted he was the best we could do killed 200,000 children. Would more have died under Trump 2? It turns out no. But we delayed some immigrants getting deported so its fine I guess.
So your solution is to support maga? I agree a revolution would be better, but it seems Americans can barely even do demonstrations on the occasional weekend. The U.S. has a choice between bad and much much worse. Do you really want to choose ‘much much worse’? What else is your plan?
I don’t think those types are comfortable going outside long enough to actually vote. Doesn’t seem like a real constituency to me.
Lots of them here on Lemmy, but you’re probably correct that they wouldn’t actually vote anyway.
You’re not wrong at all. America isn’t ready for this yet sadly.
I remember when everyone said this about a black man and he went on to win two Presidential elections by a wide margin. Your defeatist attitude is exactly why Democrats lose elections. You’re giving up before the battle has even started.
They don’t want her to win because it would be yet another condemnation on the DNC, establishment Democrats and liberal (read: corporate first, Israel first, ego first) policy. It would be embarrassing for someone like AOC to win after their big hitters losing to Trump and MAGA.
I don’t think that would be any more embarrassing than them losing to Trump 2/3 times.
I would prefer Mark Kelly, but she’s way better than Newsom at least.
Why Kelly? He’s pro Israel and pro big business. Pro ACA but anti medicare for all. He’s just the same old cookie cutter biden model centrist with no ideas-- that the public has already rejected as out of touch. I dont care at all that he was a navy and nasa pilot. Show me someone with ideas and a drive to lead in a positive direction? its not Kelly.
As a Californian, I truly believe there is no way in hell that the country will elect a Californian.
This is completely separate from the undeniable fact that Newsom has always felt like a slimy used-car salesman with his greasy slicked-back hair, and now only seems like he’ll do anything at all in the quest for MOAR POWER. There’s only so much goodwill slapping back at Trump’s tweets will get you and it certainly is nowhere near enough to get him the presidency.
Mark Kelly would have a solid chance. I hate that I can’t imagine AOC ever winning.
Few imagined her winning in The Bronx, and yet.
The Bronx is a bit different from the US presidential.
Don’t get me wrong, I love her, and I hope to see her as president some day. I just don’t know if now is the time to play that hand…
It’ll always be the wrong time.
Not necessarily, but that’s a bit of a thought-stopper if I’m being completely honest
Well I meant it as a thought-starter, the subtext is no better time than now.
How many times are the democrats going to run a woman before they get tired of losing?
Hilary won the popular vote.
facing reality.
ignoring the fact Democrats lost because no one wants neoloberalism
Pick one.
out of all the legitimate reasons the democrats lost favor with their base, you cite misogyny. fuck off!
You fuck off. Maybe try facing reality while you’re at it.
facing reality.
ignoring the fact Democrats lost because no one wants neoloberalism
Fucking pick one, dipshit.
no, u.
Mamdani has a much better chance than AOC, you think the US is a super civilized country but you guys elected Trump twice
Mamdani cannot run for president, he was born in Uganda
If you don’t know the most basic 8th-grade level facts about US government, maybe don’t opine on US politics.
India and Mexico already had female presidents and both of those countries have very intrinsic machismo, but the US is not there yet. I don’t have any faith in the US, most likely scenario is that Trump runs a 3rd term because laws, logic and consequences don’t apply to him
What you missed is that AOC has a much better chance than Mamdani. Why? Because Mamdani’s chances are essentially zero. Mamdani immigrated to the US. Only natural-born citizens can be president. Mamdani becoming president would require the removal of this constitutional provision. That would require an act to pass by 2/3rds vote in both chambers of Congress and then for that amendment to be ratified by 3/4 of all the individual state legislatures. While this is theoretically possible, it’s essentially impossible. Immigration is already unpopular in the US. And there’s no way you’re getting 3/4s of the states, including many deep red Republican states, to amend the constitution so Mamdani can be president.
Although they are clearly incorrect about NYC mayors having a good chance at running for president, you are wrong about the us. You suck, you are bringing the world down, and you better get used to people having opinions about the us (most will be negative) and voicing them to you. Its going to happen more and more as time goes on, and just like when us has had opinions on almost every other place on earth for the last 80 ish years they are going to shove it in your face whenever possible.
Only natural-born citizens can become U.S. president and Mamdani isn’t one.
Our president isn’t supposed to be a rapist war criminal, either. The rules are dead.
I’m almost positive Washington did some war crimes, and Jefferson was a rapist, so that doesn’t hold up super well
Yeap, that is correct. My point of people having stupid opinions that they are going to share remains however.
Thank you! That’s what I was getting at.
America will not vote for a female democrat
Stop repeating failure
Hillary won the popular vote so she lost because you have a shitty system , not that she is a woman
Because we lost with two poor candidates, we shouldn’t try with a good one?
Until they do.
…does xkcd ever miss???
yea! because it wasn’t betrayal of the left base, and kowtowing to the establishment, or the botched run for president or the scandals. it was because she was a woman, right.
getting real sick of these garbage people
I’d love to see AOC elected, but I doubt it.
Sadly, America will never vote a woman President.
2024 was definitive proof of that.
Trump was re-elected in spite of Covid being his fault simply because the other choice had a vagina.
Hilary won the popular vote and she was a warmonger but she was good at communicating unlike the idiot Harris
What data supports this? What exit pills show that people were concerned about voting for a woman at rates that matter? Cause there’s tons of data showing it was other reasons. Democrats need to get out the base, exciting candidates is how you do that
Would America elect a platner / aoc ticket? Maybe.
Would they elect an aoc / platner ticket? Very unlikely.
I’d love to be proven wrong, I’d vote for either or AOC and someone else, but I don’t trust this country to overcome their racism and sexism at this time and the stakes are way too damn high.
That said if AOC could motivate enough turnout it could work, but I’m very skeptical.
You seem well-meaning, but the racism/sexism card is way overplayed at this point in the game. The two examples DNC sympathisers point to for why an AOC run is a bad idea both lost not because they were women, but because they were utterly terrible politicians. I wasn’t around for Hillary so I can’t go into too much detail, but Harris specifically did her utmost best to destroy every single ounce of goodwill she had. And as for the racism, well, America did overwhelmingly elect Obama in 2008. Even on the far right you see MAGA elect women and minority politicians they agree with (see: MTG), so there’s no way the everyone left of Reagan coalition wouldn’t be able to elect AOC due to sexism. It’s just a complete and utter non-issue.
But the right wing media would come out along with the Russian/ Chinese manipulators and convince too many leftists that there’s something wrong with her for some reason. Leftists are such suckers to this manipulation. I mean do you even have reasons for thinking Harris was so bad?
The left has no obligation to join your shitty cults
Yes, you can support maga if you wish, just try to understand that’s what you are doing.
Cult in plural
Leftists are such suckers to this manipulation. I mean do you even have reasons for thinking Harris was so bad?
Supporting genocide is bad. Get that through your head and shut the fuck up already.
So you support the orange moron who calls for the eradication of Palestinians from Gaza so he can build a casino strip there? Brilliant.
I mean do you even have reasons for thinking Harris was so bad?
Multiple endorsements of Israeli genocide.
A couple million dollars from AIPAC, and that’s before her VP run. We don’t know how many digits above 8 she received from israel to ‘promise no change from the Biden administration.’
Absolutely no acknowledgement of the failures of the Biden admin. Every single demographic under 400k income was worse off under Biden. Every single one. White, black, high school dropouts, PhD holders in the middle class, all of them were objectively worse off.
Absolutely no foreign policy experience besides the Biden admin, who also had no foreign policy experience and soft launched the war in Iran. There was no world where we didn’t enter a war with Iran with either candidate, hence why every single DNC power player has endorsed Trump’s war, but ‘has issues with how it was done.’
Her entire political career prior to her VP, including the entirety of her time as California AG.
So you don’t like her Israel stance. Understandable. But there are big forces at play here - she simply couldn’t turn her back on Isreal, it would be the end of her career and possibly life. She said some bad comments of Isreal but she also made some moderate comments, and had a little push back; times were a bit different then, that was before Isreal just started to murder civilians blatantly en mass. I think most of those metrics are a bit unfair due to Covid effects.
And no, the war in Iran wasn’t a forgone conclusion. Yes military action was likely due to trump fucking up the agreements and the desire not to let Iran get nukes.
Your points are valid to some degree but I think you are being overly critical. And I wonder why?Because neoliberalism cannot improve things. The US has two effective choices because Americans are too stupid and too lazy to vote third party; if one is a fascist, and the other is the reason fascism flourishes, one will be ‘overly critical’ of both possible choices.
People will not vote for more of the same when they’ve been suffering. People will vote for change and chaos long before they vote for ‘hurr durr every thing’s fine the fact your life is worse is fox news misinformation your experiences don’t matter I will just keep doing what’s made your life this way.’
This means, if you run a campaign like that, you are implicitly supporting fascism. This isn’t a surprising or new strategy, it’s the exclusive reason why Obama, a junior senator with a conservative if not far-right voting track record, was able to win the presidency under the democratic ticket. He promised change. It is why Trump won. It is every single analysts’ reason for why Trump won. He promised change. He promised to be an outsider. He promised to not do the same thing as any of his predecessors.
It is why Biden won, on the campaign promise of changing from Trump’s nonsense.
Harris lost for the same reason Clinton lost for the same reason Romney lost for the same reason Kerry lost for the same reason Gore lost for the same reason… you get where I’m going with this.
If the next democratic presidential candidate promises to “return to normalcy” or “return to the biden era” or “bring back civility to politics” or anything that suggests they are not going to bring radical change, they will lose. It does not matter if they have tits or not. It does not matter if they are Chinese Black Mixed with a cock on their forehead and a literal conjoined twin that looks like a demon baby growing out of their stomach. It does not matter if they are a white rich peodphile (gavin Newsom).
Every single honest political analyst has been screaming at the democratic party since before Clinton became the nominee in 2015. Just promise change and be as visible as possible in trying to follow through. Do not pretend things are fine when they’re not. Do not cater to culture war nonsense. Mention how fucked people are economically, and how you’re going to fix it, and why you ARE NOT A “NORMAL” POLITICIAN. If ANY candidate does that this next election, D or R, they will win. Period. Regardless of race, religion, sex, or whether or not they ‘appeal’ to voters tastes.
Yes, I see that. I think people voted for trump the first time because they thought it would be interesting. And his ‘drain the swamp’ would be good to get back at the elite. I can’t believe they fell for it the second time. I don’t think he even coherently promised change the second time, it was more that it was his reputation already, and even though the changes he made before were demonstrably worse, people still supported him. I guess trump is interesting but in the way a car accident is interesting. If that’s all the U.S. electorate wants, we are so fucked. How can you battle that idiocy without just doing the same?
It’s not ‘interesting,’ it is change. Yes Trump 2 also promised change and proved himself to somewhat be an agent of chaos. When people experienced the Biden years and their lives just kept getting worse by ‘returning to normal politics,’ they were willing to burn down the US instead of dealing with normal politics again.
People largely didn’t support Trump because he is racist or interesting or what have you; but simply because the worst case scenario is the destruction of the US government, and the best case scenario is something that is not the same shit that has crushed them, their parents, and their grand parents for as long as they’ve been alive.
Trump correctly identified ‘the swamp,’ or the ‘deep state,’ or the idea that there is an embedded rot that exists in the US ruling class that exists solely to crush the working class. That there are people and groups explicitly working to make sure the rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and that the law binds the latter and is disregarded by the former without consequence. He literally told on himself and his homies, but attributed it to just the government instead of the entirety of capital.
This resonates with people. Even if he is also a part of capital, he is at worst incompetent and will do enough damage to capital that the average worker might end up better. At the very least Capital would be hurt like the working class has been hurt.
That is an objectively better outcome than returning to normal politics. That is objectively better for most people than ‘we’d be at brunch.’
times were a bit different then, that was before Isreal just started to murder civilians blatantly en mass.
No, it’s just before liberals started admitting that Israel was blatantly murdering civilians en masse. This had a lot more to do with a Republican being in charge than the actual blatant mass murder of civilians, which had been going on since October 2023.
And I wonder why?
Because you like Harris and don’t want to accept that someone can have a valid reason to hate her guts.
It’s not a matter of liberals admitting it, it’s that Isreal ramped up and ran out of targets with any military association but kept bombing. And they did this because trump encouraged them to do so. Harris would have kept arming them but would have continued to push the message that Isreal should respect human rights while defending itself. It matters and it’s different. All the while that Hammas kept firing rockets into Isreal, which it was doing daily before the election, Isreal had cover to bomb things even remotely like a military resource. There were so many obvious lies being pushed by both sides that even the extent of Isreal’s atrocities was questionable back then. And by your own assertion above, liberals and democrats have now recognized that Hamas is essentially disarmed now and Isreal’s continued attacks on civilians are unacceptable. The dnc is shifting now, but there is a powerful isreali lobby and some die hards in the party. Now is the time to push and people are doing that. But once we are in the election, we need to cool off and help democrats win as much as possible. Otherwise any shift is wasted and we have more years of the US blindly encouraging and paying for Isreal to do what it wants with absolutely no restrictions.
It’s not a matter of liberals admitting it, it’s that Isreal ramped up and ran out of targets with any military association but kept bombing.
See, you’re proving my point. That’s exactly what was happening under Biden. The UN was warning of a famine as early as mid-2024. Biden himself said Rafah was a humanitarian red line and proceeded to do nothing when Israel took it. If your point is that Israel was engaging in legitimate self-defense until November, then kindly fuck off.
There were so many obvious lies being pushed by both sides that even the extent of Isreal’s atrocities was questionable back then.
No it fucking wasn’t. People were yelling as loud as they could that Israel’s conduct was genocidal as early as October 9th 2023.
all of them were objectively worse off.
I generally agree with you, but I thought real wages went up under Biden for low income earners? What metric are you using here?
convince too many leftists that there’s something wrong with her for some reason.
I mean there is plenty wrong with her (TropicalDingdong makes a good case in that regard), but she’s the best realistic option barring a new national-scale Mamdani.
I mean do you even have reasons for thinking Harris was so bad?
Yes, plenty in fact.
Yes, she’s the best realistic option. Just like Harris was in the last cycle.
