Sadly, I feel there are still too many bigots and sexists in the US who cannot bring themselves to vote for a woman, esp. one who isn’t ‘white enough’. That, piled on top of the ‘establishment’ Dem factions that will do everything possible to subvert a campaign… which will let the right-wingers/fascists drive right up the middle again.
the ‘establishment’ Dem factions that will do everything possible to subvert a campaign
What you’re doing now is part of how the establishment subverts campaigns. They always selectively apply the ‘electability’ argument only to progressives and insurgents while embracing identity politics for their own candidates. Whenever a progressive of any minority group runs the nation “isn’t ready,” but when it’s one of theirs “it’s time.”
When the DNC runs candidates who’s campaign promises are status quo, corporate subsidies and serving Israel then yeah, the bigot and sexist vote becomes significant. People need to stop using that as a condemnation of the country as a whole. It’s a condemnation of the two party system, a corrupt or derelict Democratic party or a “democracy” which is no longer functioning.
Meanwhile candidates who actually prioritize American voters can win without the help of bigots. Obama proved this back in 2008 and Zohran has proved things have only gotten better. Not only did he win without the bigot vote but without all the other piece of shit voters who showed up for Cuomo in the general election.
Harris was a garbage candidate. Biden was a garbage candidate. Hillary Clinton was a garbage candidate. American voters as a whole are not responsible for the abhorrent behavior by the DNC and assholes who vote for people like Biden and Cuomo in Democratic primaries.
But the reason they put garbage candidates forward is because they regard them as a safe bet, not too radical for some, not too weak for others. … they may be right… it depends whether the vaguely inoffensive option results in the largest number of votes overall or whether a boldly progressive candidate with strong support of fewer voters gives them the better result. Dems always go with the safe option.
Well yeah, last time Americans elected a socialist they kept electing him til he died. Can’t have that happen again. They aren’t going with safe they are going with what they are financially incentivised to do. Look at the funding for democratic candidates, that’s their constituency. You’re projecting your own morals on them, they don’t actually care about what’s good for the country
FDR wasn’t a socialist, he was a man who understood that if he didn’t offer the people a better deal then they’d look to revolution to get it. It pissed off the rich and powerful, but ultimately he was doing what he believed necessary to preserve capitalism.
You seem well-meaning, but the racism/sexism card is way overplayed at this point in the game. The two examples DNC sympathisers point to for why an AOC run is a bad idea both lost not because they were women, but because they were utterly terrible politicians. I wasn’t around for Hillary so I can’t go into too much detail, but Harris specifically did her utmost best to destroy every single ounce of goodwill she had. And as for the racism, well, America did overwhelmingly elect Obama in 2008. Even on the far right you see MAGA elect women and minority politicians they agree with (see: MTG), so there’s no way the everyone left of Reagan coalition wouldn’t be able to elect AOC due to sexism. It’s just a complete and utter non-issue.
You say that, but I personally know people who voted for Trump over Harris specifically because she was a woman. I personally know people who voted for Trump over Clinton for the exact same reason.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with AOC myself and would vote for her, but to pretend that it’s a “non-issue” assumes that the average person doesn’t care. Many people do actually care, and ignoring the existence of those people is poor strategy. Maybe I’m overestimating the number of people who care, maybe not, but it is unfortunately a real concern that won’t magically go away by pretending people, as a whole, are more enlightened than that.
I mean sure you can find people who think or do basically anything; I haven’t seen any evidence that this is a significant group of people, even though if it was it’d show up on polls before and after the election. I’d also bet good money no such evidence exists, because if it did libs wouldn’t shut up about it. Meanwhile plenty of evidence exists that the most significant factors in Harris’s loss were the genocide and her being a rightwing ghoul.
And people voted for Trump because he’s rich. Does that mean we only need to run rich candidates. Fuck no. There isn’t a large enough group of people who would otherwise vote for someone like AOC who wouldn’t because she’s a woman. Either her positions are strong enough to win or they aren’t. The woman thing is bullshit, and it’s just people trying to push for a more generic candidate that doesn’t represent us.
I personally know people who voted for Trump over Kamala specifically because she was a woman. I personally know people who voted for Trump over Harris for the exact same reason
Uh… did you mean to say “Hillary” up there at some point? Because “Kamala” and “Harris” are the same person…
Except when Obama was elected the right lost their ever loving minds. And Fox went off the deep end. The entire right wing propaganda machine has gone nuts for the last 18 years and unfortunately it worked. Acting like it’s currently the environment of 2008 is blind.
Obama’s campaign made me realize what it was like to have a politician work for my vote. All that “hope and change” rhetoric actually worked on me. Somewhere in his eight years in office I realized he was full of shit but it gave me optimism for the future. That optimism blossomed as I listened to Sanders speeches.
So when Hillary Clinton came along and started setting herself in opposition to Sanders and ultimately defeating him I realized Hillary Clinton and the entire Democratic party think they can just assume I’ll support them so long as they run against a Republican who is much much worse.
They’re wrong.
Republicans haven’t gotten stronger. The Democratic party has intentionally weakened itself because rather than serving the American people they want to serve corporations, Israel and their own egos.
That didn’t respond to anything I wrote. The right wing media went nuts and it worked. For 18 years. We can’t act like those 18 years of propaganda didn’t change anything because it did.
But anyway to respond to what you wrote, I think the best way to address this is you’re looking at the parties, while I’m looking at the votes.
Hilary said she’d a map room to (read, go to war on) fight climate change. The left never came out. Biden went to good old politics. Won. Kamala relied on woman’s rights. The left never came out. Guess what will happen next time? They will not rely on the left. They will go after the center. The center that actually shows up. (Also see my other comment.)
This completely misses the point that Kamala didn’t win a primary. You can’t say “didn’t get support” because she wasn’t “the candidate” in the first plac
You’re working really hard to tell this thread why voting is pointless
We’re not talking about the right, though; we’re talking about the left and center. You know, the people who voted for Obama, and who would be expected to vote for a Democratic candidate. Why even care what the right thinks?
Acting like it’s currently the environment of 2008 is blind.
Sure, but that cuts both ways. Just like the right is more fascist today, the left and center-left are more progressive and more willing to listen to radical voices. Your implicit assumption that all of America shifted rightwards doesn’t match up with reality.
My point was about the last 18 years of right wing propaganda. We can’t act like it didn’t happen and that we’re in the same place as 2008.
You don’t have do go very far to find “my dad was the greatest, didn’t care if people were black” to, well, I won’t repeat much of the Qanon. There’s a whole sub for it, remember? QanonCasualties. That’s the point of propaganda, to spread the message, to increase their numbers. And no it doesn’t cut both ways because left media is beholden to the truth, and right wing media can do whatever they want. And they do. And they grow. Most popular “news” source is what? Fox. You are missing everything. Like fucking everything.
It’s a little disjointed because I edited in the first paragraph, but yes it does respond to what you said.
Do you want a line by line breakdown? Ok.
We’re not talking about the right, though; we’re talking about the left and center.
Agreed. And guess what? The right wing’s propaganda machine has reached the center. That’s the whole point. 18 years of hardcore propaganda has reached the center. That’s the point of propaganda.
You know, the people who voted for Obama,
You don’t have do go very far to find “my dad was the greatest, didn’t care if people were black” EDIT AT ADD: “and voted for Obama”. And those people changed to, well, I won’t repeat much of the Qanon.
There’s a whole sub for it, remember? QanonCasualties. People that were formely center or Obama voters that got suckered in. That’s the point of propaganda, to spread the message, to increase their voters.
Why even care what the right thinks?
The whole point of propaganda is to reach other people. So it’s not what the right thinks, it’s how the people that were formerly center that have been suckered in to the right’s propoganda will vote.
Sure, but that cuts both ways.
No it doesn’t cut both ways because left media is beholden to the truth, and right wing media can do whatever they want. They lie their ass off. They twist. They appeal to easy emotions like fear and anger. The left media can’t do that.
The most popular “news” source is what? Fox.
You are missing everything. Like fucking everything.
The Right has shifted the overton window so hard to the right that Fascism is a mainstream opinion. Heck it’s considered more rude to question Fascism than it is to question Trans Rights.
You think I’m trying to fearmonger, or that I’m ??? in favor??? of it? Lol no. I’m baffled how you can even read that.
I am observing that the right wing media has been going nuts for the last 18 years. We can’t ignore that. And the whole point is that it’s not limited to the right wing audience, they got their message to the masses.
You’re making complete sense here. If Obama had been white, Trump never would have happened. Hell if Hillary had been a man, Trump never would have happened.
This, back in 2008, North Carolina went Blue for Obama. It went red for Romney in 2012. Why?
Well as someone who remembered the Churches pleading with everyone to “Vote for the Mormon over the Muslim” I can tell you.
It’s because the beehive hadn’t been kicked yet. The idea of a black president seemed like a wonderful sign of the progress we made as a nation. When it actually happened, that retroactively became a bridge too far.
There was a silent contract, racists could be polite and civil. A black man could be equal to a white man, as long as everyone silently agreed the white man was “more equal”
When the President was black, well, that was seen as a violation of the social contract. The same people who voted for Obama to show how “Not racist” they were, suddenly became furious that he won. Because the “contract” compelled them to outwardly appear non-racist by voting for a black guy, but when it was “violated” by his election, these same people proudly dropped the Hard R to describe the leader of the free world while watching Fox News.
I agree, but I put it more down to Fox et al than the social contract.
I would change it to: " The same people who voted for Obama to show how “Not racist” they were, because they were open to the idea of being not racist suddenly became furious that he won were bombarded by Fox how terrible Obama was and how horrible Democrats were. And they slowly but surely absorbed that message. "
Fox went absolutely apeshit after Obama was elected, they wanted to do everything they could to bring him down in any way they could. And their rhetorical techniques are good at appealing to people (inb4 lemmy’s seeming misreading, it’s disgusting, but I observe that it works).
Yes, but also I don’t think the Democrats have any stronger candidate to run against Trump. Most of them can’t even meaningfully speak against Trump. If they run another wishy-washy centrist there’s a much greater chance that they lose to disillusionment yet again. AOC is the closest they have to Bernie Sanders and they’d either be idiots or snakes to not do so. Personally, she’s probably the only potential presidential hopeful out there who I would enthusiastically vote for.
Yes, but also I don’t think the Democrats have any stronger candidate to run against Republicans.
This is a real problem. Who’s in the national Democratic pipeline? Biden kind of sucked the life out of anyone associated with him - Anthony Blinken? Lloyd Austin? Pete Buttigeig was the closest thing Biden had to an attack dog, but he keeps losing elections and I don’t know what he’s doing now. I thought Katie Porter was cool for a while, but she blew her run for senate and is currently choking on a run for governor of California. Bernie’s too old.
Came here to say basically this but I want to live in a world where it’s not true, and I actively, knowingly choose willful ignorance. I want her to run, I will vote for her, I will get out the vote for her. I think we have to.
In many cases, yes. Progressives are so quick to turn on their own that all it takes is a little Russian or Chinese media manipulation and they forget their goals. it’s already happening
If you cannot handle defending your decisions, you don’t belong on the left. Either as a representative or as a member. If you want to vote to send weapons to Israel while they commit one of the worst genocides in history, you will get backlash and demands to defend your actions from any human being that exists.
Yes, I agree. But once we are in the election, we need to support ‘better’. If we keep pushing people against the viable better candidate then, they will lose and we’ll get the much worse maga option.
That is how fascism happens. ‘Lesser Evilism’ does not work. The current state of the US proves this. It is so easy to just not be evil. So incredibly fucking easy.
Gavin Newsom, for example, will be worse for the average person than Donald Trump. He would be the ‘lesser evil,’ and would probably redirect ICE to only target male immigrants instead of everyone brown and would probably say gays and lesbians are okay while still targeting trans people; but his economic warfare against the working class will be worse, as he’s competent and surrounds himself with competent people.
Allowing people like that, as an example, to exist on the left because Donald Trump exists is like shooting off your toe because you were aiming at your dick. Yeah, it’s kinda better from a deranged viewpoint that ignores everything, but it does not solve the problem.
Or to borrow a phrase, it’s like only feeding bad children to the orphan crushing machine instead of just turning off the orphan crushing machine. No. ‘Better’ is not good enough in this case. Joseph Biden is responsible for at least 200,000 dead children. Every single Biden voter that just insisted he was the best we could do killed 200,000 children. Would more have died under Trump 2? It turns out no. But we delayed some immigrants getting deported so its fine I guess.
So your solution is to support maga? I agree a revolution would be better, but it seems Americans can barely even do demonstrations on the occasional weekend. The U.S. has a choice between bad and much much worse. Do you really want to choose ‘much much worse’? What else is your plan?
No the solution is RUN PEOPLE THAT DO NOT SUPPORT GENOCIDE.
Jesus Christ you are supposedly in a democracy. Making your voice heard is not "HURRRDURRR LEMME PICK BETWEEN A AND B,’ it is criticizing, threatening to not support, and working against those that do not represent you regardless of the color of their tie.
“Oh but what choice do we have” Every fucking choice. Fucking storm the DNC HQ. Protest outside your local DNC office. Fire bomb Fetterman’s house. For fuck’s sake stop settling for lesser evil and demand at least mediocre good.
In every single state what matters for the presidential race is the name you input for president. Put a name down that isn’t evil. Congrats. If 1/4th of voters do this, that person wins the presidency.
I remember when everyone said this about a black man and he went on to win two Presidential elections by a wide margin. Your defeatist attitude is exactly why Democrats lose elections. You’re giving up before the battle has even started.
They don’t want her to win because it would be yet another condemnation on the DNC, establishment Democrats and liberal (read: corporate first, Israel first, ego first) policy. It would be embarrassing for someone like AOC to win after their big hitters losing to Trump and MAGA.
Sadly, I feel there are still too many bigots and sexists in the US who cannot bring themselves to vote for a woman, esp. one who isn’t ‘white enough’. That, piled on top of the ‘establishment’ Dem factions that will do everything possible to subvert a campaign… which will let the right-wingers/fascists drive right up the middle again.
Feel free to prove me wrong, USA. Please.
What you’re doing now is part of how the establishment subverts campaigns. They always selectively apply the ‘electability’ argument only to progressives and insurgents while embracing identity politics for their own candidates. Whenever a progressive of any minority group runs the nation “isn’t ready,” but when it’s one of theirs “it’s time.”
When the DNC runs candidates who’s campaign promises are status quo, corporate subsidies and serving Israel then yeah, the bigot and sexist vote becomes significant. People need to stop using that as a condemnation of the country as a whole. It’s a condemnation of the two party system, a corrupt or derelict Democratic party or a “democracy” which is no longer functioning.
Meanwhile candidates who actually prioritize American voters can win without the help of bigots. Obama proved this back in 2008 and Zohran has proved things have only gotten better. Not only did he win without the bigot vote but without all the other piece of shit voters who showed up for Cuomo in the general election.
Harris was a garbage candidate. Biden was a garbage candidate. Hillary Clinton was a garbage candidate. American voters as a whole are not responsible for the abhorrent behavior by the DNC and assholes who vote for people like Biden and Cuomo in Democratic primaries.
But the reason they put garbage candidates forward is because they regard them as a safe bet, not too radical for some, not too weak for others. … they may be right… it depends whether the vaguely inoffensive option results in the largest number of votes overall or whether a boldly progressive candidate with strong support of fewer voters gives them the better result. Dems always go with the safe option.
Well yeah, last time Americans elected a socialist they kept electing him til he died. Can’t have that happen again. They aren’t going with safe they are going with what they are financially incentivised to do. Look at the funding for democratic candidates, that’s their constituency. You’re projecting your own morals on them, they don’t actually care about what’s good for the country
FDR wasn’t a socialist, he was a man who understood that if he didn’t offer the people a better deal then they’d look to revolution to get it. It pissed off the rich and powerful, but ultimately he was doing what he believed necessary to preserve capitalism.
Copy paste from elsewhere in the thread.
You seem well-meaning, but the racism/sexism card is way overplayed at this point in the game. The two examples DNC sympathisers point to for why an AOC run is a bad idea both lost not because they were women, but because they were utterly terrible politicians. I wasn’t around for Hillary so I can’t go into too much detail, but Harris specifically did her utmost best to destroy every single ounce of goodwill she had. And as for the racism, well, America did overwhelmingly elect Obama in 2008. Even on the far right you see MAGA elect women and minority politicians they agree with (see: MTG), so there’s no way the everyone left of Reagan coalition wouldn’t be able to elect AOC due to sexism. It’s just a complete and utter non-issue.
You say that, but I personally know people who voted for Trump over Harris specifically because she was a woman. I personally know people who voted for Trump over Clinton for the exact same reason.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with AOC myself and would vote for her, but to pretend that it’s a “non-issue” assumes that the average person doesn’t care. Many people do actually care, and ignoring the existence of those people is poor strategy. Maybe I’m overestimating the number of people who care, maybe not, but it is unfortunately a real concern that won’t magically go away by pretending people, as a whole, are more enlightened than that.
I mean sure you can find people who think or do basically anything; I haven’t seen any evidence that this is a significant group of people, even though if it was it’d show up on polls before and after the election. I’d also bet good money no such evidence exists, because if it did libs wouldn’t shut up about it. Meanwhile plenty of evidence exists that the most significant factors in Harris’s loss were the genocide and her being a rightwing ghoul.
And people voted for Trump because he’s rich. Does that mean we only need to run rich candidates. Fuck no. There isn’t a large enough group of people who would otherwise vote for someone like AOC who wouldn’t because she’s a woman. Either her positions are strong enough to win or they aren’t. The woman thing is bullshit, and it’s just people trying to push for a more generic candidate that doesn’t represent us.
Uh… did you mean to say “Hillary” up there at some point? Because “Kamala” and “Harris” are the same person…
Except when Obama was elected the right lost their ever loving minds. And Fox went off the deep end. The entire right wing propaganda machine has gone nuts for the last 18 years and unfortunately it worked. Acting like it’s currently the environment of 2008 is blind.
As a leftist I have a completely different take.
Obama’s campaign made me realize what it was like to have a politician work for my vote. All that “hope and change” rhetoric actually worked on me. Somewhere in his eight years in office I realized he was full of shit but it gave me optimism for the future. That optimism blossomed as I listened to Sanders speeches.
So when Hillary Clinton came along and started setting herself in opposition to Sanders and ultimately defeating him I realized Hillary Clinton and the entire Democratic party think they can just assume I’ll support them so long as they run against a Republican who is much much worse.
They’re wrong.
Republicans haven’t gotten stronger. The Democratic party has intentionally weakened itself because rather than serving the American people they want to serve corporations, Israel and their own egos.
As a vulnerable minority (trans) being targeted for active genocide by the Right, I really wish that WAS enough for Democrats to get elected
That didn’t respond to anything I wrote. The right wing media went nuts and it worked. For 18 years. We can’t act like those 18 years of propaganda didn’t change anything because it did.
But anyway to respond to what you wrote, I think the best way to address this is you’re looking at the parties, while I’m looking at the votes.
Hilary said she’d a map room to (read, go to war on) fight climate change. The left never came out. Biden went to good old politics. Won. Kamala relied on woman’s rights. The left never came out. Guess what will happen next time? They will not rely on the left. They will go after the center. The center that actually shows up. (Also see my other comment.)
This completely misses the point that Kamala didn’t win a primary. You can’t say “didn’t get support” because she wasn’t “the candidate” in the first plac You’re working really hard to tell this thread why voting is pointless
I wonder why
Me: vote.
You: why are you telling people not to vote?
Unreal.
We’re not talking about the right, though; we’re talking about the left and center. You know, the people who voted for Obama, and who would be expected to vote for a Democratic candidate. Why even care what the right thinks?
Sure, but that cuts both ways. Just like the right is more fascist today, the left and center-left are more progressive and more willing to listen to radical voices. Your implicit assumption that all of America shifted rightwards doesn’t match up with reality.
My point was about the last 18 years of right wing propaganda. We can’t act like it didn’t happen and that we’re in the same place as 2008.
You don’t have do go very far to find “my dad was the greatest, didn’t care if people were black” to, well, I won’t repeat much of the Qanon. There’s a whole sub for it, remember? QanonCasualties. That’s the point of propaganda, to spread the message, to increase their numbers. And no it doesn’t cut both ways because left media is beholden to the truth, and right wing media can do whatever they want. And they do. And they grow. Most popular “news” source is what? Fox. You are missing everything. Like fucking everything.
This is more of a rant than a response to anything I actually said.
It’s a little disjointed because I edited in the first paragraph, but yes it does respond to what you said.
Do you want a line by line breakdown? Ok.
Agreed. And guess what? The right wing’s propaganda machine has reached the center. That’s the whole point. 18 years of hardcore propaganda has reached the center. That’s the point of propaganda.
You don’t have do go very far to find “my dad was the greatest, didn’t care if people were black” EDIT AT ADD: “and voted for Obama”. And those people changed to, well, I won’t repeat much of the Qanon.
There’s a whole sub for it, remember? QanonCasualties. People that were formely center or Obama voters that got suckered in. That’s the point of propaganda, to spread the message, to increase their voters.
The whole point of propaganda is to reach other people. So it’s not what the right thinks, it’s how the people that were formerly center that have been suckered in to the right’s propoganda will vote.
No it doesn’t cut both ways because left media is beholden to the truth, and right wing media can do whatever they want. They lie their ass off. They twist. They appeal to easy emotions like fear and anger. The left media can’t do that.
The most popular “news” source is what? Fox.
You are missing everything. Like fucking everything.
You’re the only one talking sense here.
The Right has shifted the overton window so hard to the right that Fascism is a mainstream opinion. Heck it’s considered more rude to question Fascism than it is to question Trans Rights.
Nobody gives a fuck what the right thinks or your fearmongering in favor of it. Knock it off.
You think I’m trying to fearmonger, or that I’m ??? in favor??? of it? Lol no. I’m baffled how you can even read that.
I am observing that the right wing media has been going nuts for the last 18 years. We can’t ignore that. And the whole point is that it’s not limited to the right wing audience, they got their message to the masses.
You make zero sense, and I read this as fear mongering as well
Why are you working so hard to ensure people feel dejected about voting?
Removed by mod
You’re making complete sense here. If Obama had been white, Trump never would have happened. Hell if Hillary had been a man, Trump never would have happened.
This, back in 2008, North Carolina went Blue for Obama. It went red for Romney in 2012. Why?
Well as someone who remembered the Churches pleading with everyone to “Vote for the Mormon over the Muslim” I can tell you.
It’s because the beehive hadn’t been kicked yet. The idea of a black president seemed like a wonderful sign of the progress we made as a nation. When it actually happened, that retroactively became a bridge too far.
There was a silent contract, racists could be polite and civil. A black man could be equal to a white man, as long as everyone silently agreed the white man was “more equal”
When the President was black, well, that was seen as a violation of the social contract. The same people who voted for Obama to show how “Not racist” they were, suddenly became furious that he won. Because the “contract” compelled them to outwardly appear non-racist by voting for a black guy, but when it was “violated” by his election, these same people proudly dropped the Hard R to describe the leader of the free world while watching Fox News.
am I making sense?
I agree, but I put it more down to Fox et al than the social contract.
I would change it to: " The same people who voted for Obama
to show how “Not racist” they were,because they were open to the idea of being not racistsuddenly became furious that he wonwere bombarded by Fox how terrible Obama was and how horrible Democrats were. And they slowly but surely absorbed that message. "Fox went absolutely apeshit after Obama was elected, they wanted to do everything they could to bring him down in any way they could. And their rhetorical techniques are good at appealing to people (inb4 lemmy’s seeming misreading, it’s disgusting, but I observe that it works).
Yes, but also I don’t think the Democrats have any stronger candidate to run against Trump. Most of them can’t even meaningfully speak against Trump. If they run another wishy-washy centrist there’s a much greater chance that they lose to disillusionment yet again. AOC is the closest they have to Bernie Sanders and they’d either be idiots or snakes to not do so. Personally, she’s probably the only potential presidential hopeful out there who I would enthusiastically vote for.
They have proven themselves at this point to be both.
This is a real problem. Who’s in the national Democratic pipeline? Biden kind of sucked the life out of anyone associated with him - Anthony Blinken? Lloyd Austin? Pete Buttigeig was the closest thing Biden had to an attack dog, but he keeps losing elections and I don’t know what he’s doing now. I thought Katie Porter was cool for a while, but she blew her run for senate and is currently choking on a run for governor of California. Bernie’s too old.
I don’t even know who else is out there.
Tim Walz, maybe, if he quits listening to the neolib assholes giving him shitty advice?
I really wish he hadn’t stopped calling Vance “weird”, that was actually fucking working.
Honestly hunter biden or J.B. Pritzker aka the great khan of Illinois
Both are bought and paid-for zionists.
Illinois-ian here.
We need prizker where he is.
There is such a thing as being promoted out of ones best place.
He’s where he should be.
Came here to say basically this but I want to live in a world where it’s not true, and I actively, knowingly choose willful ignorance. I want her to run, I will vote for her, I will get out the vote for her. I think we have to.
Not to mention all the progressives that won’t vote for her because she’s not progressive enough, or perfectly aligned on every policy.
Hey look it’s another genocide supporter.
Hey look, another moron.
The same progressives encouraging her to run despite her problematic ideology?
In many cases, yes. Progressives are so quick to turn on their own that all it takes is a little Russian or Chinese media manipulation and they forget their goals. it’s already happening
Criticism is not ‘turning on their own.’
If you cannot handle defending your decisions, you don’t belong on the left. Either as a representative or as a member. If you want to vote to send weapons to Israel while they commit one of the worst genocides in history, you will get backlash and demands to defend your actions from any human being that exists.
Yes, I agree. But once we are in the election, we need to support ‘better’. If we keep pushing people against the viable better candidate then, they will lose and we’ll get the much worse maga option.
No.
Period.
That is how fascism happens. ‘Lesser Evilism’ does not work. The current state of the US proves this. It is so easy to just not be evil. So incredibly fucking easy.
Gavin Newsom, for example, will be worse for the average person than Donald Trump. He would be the ‘lesser evil,’ and would probably redirect ICE to only target male immigrants instead of everyone brown and would probably say gays and lesbians are okay while still targeting trans people; but his economic warfare against the working class will be worse, as he’s competent and surrounds himself with competent people.
Allowing people like that, as an example, to exist on the left because Donald Trump exists is like shooting off your toe because you were aiming at your dick. Yeah, it’s kinda better from a deranged viewpoint that ignores everything, but it does not solve the problem.
Or to borrow a phrase, it’s like only feeding bad children to the orphan crushing machine instead of just turning off the orphan crushing machine. No. ‘Better’ is not good enough in this case. Joseph Biden is responsible for at least 200,000 dead children. Every single Biden voter that just insisted he was the best we could do killed 200,000 children. Would more have died under Trump 2? It turns out no. But we delayed some immigrants getting deported so its fine I guess.
So your solution is to support maga? I agree a revolution would be better, but it seems Americans can barely even do demonstrations on the occasional weekend. The U.S. has a choice between bad and much much worse. Do you really want to choose ‘much much worse’? What else is your plan?
No the solution is RUN PEOPLE THAT DO NOT SUPPORT GENOCIDE.
Jesus Christ you are supposedly in a democracy. Making your voice heard is not "HURRRDURRR LEMME PICK BETWEEN A AND B,’ it is criticizing, threatening to not support, and working against those that do not represent you regardless of the color of their tie.
“Oh but what choice do we have” Every fucking choice. Fucking storm the DNC HQ. Protest outside your local DNC office. Fire bomb Fetterman’s house. For fuck’s sake stop settling for lesser evil and demand at least mediocre good.
In every single state what matters for the presidential race is the name you input for president. Put a name down that isn’t evil. Congrats. If 1/4th of voters do this, that person wins the presidency.
I don’t think those types are comfortable going outside long enough to actually vote. Doesn’t seem like a real constituency to me.
Lots of them here on Lemmy, but you’re probably correct that they wouldn’t actually vote anyway.
You’re not wrong at all. America isn’t ready for this yet sadly.
I remember when everyone said this about a black man and he went on to win two Presidential elections by a wide margin. Your defeatist attitude is exactly why Democrats lose elections. You’re giving up before the battle has even started.
They don’t want her to win because it would be yet another condemnation on the DNC, establishment Democrats and liberal (read: corporate first, Israel first, ego first) policy. It would be embarrassing for someone like AOC to win after their big hitters losing to Trump and MAGA.
I don’t think that would be any more embarrassing than them losing to Trump 2/3 times.