I said this before…when the fuck do we rise up? Or are we going to sit in the pot and boil?
It has started. It has been out of control for some time I can guess it will end badly for our American cousins and also the world.
First they came for the immigrants, But I said nothing, Because I’m not a filthy immigrant.
Then they came for the protestors, But I said nothing, Because protesters are libtards.
Then they came for the judges and politicians, But I said nothing, Because they are all corrupt and evil.
Then they came for the minorities, But I said nothing, Because they deserve it!
And then they came for me, Because I was a gullible tool.
- A future MAGAT survivor.
ICE walked into that courthouse without a judicial warrant - no judge authorized the attempted arrest of the defendant, who I might add voluntarily appeared for his court hearing.
This is the real threat, folks. This is one of many vicious cycles they want to start. Arrest immigrants at their own hearings, when they are already complying with the will of the state. Convince others not to show up to court, make them fear any and all interactions with the state, then accuse them of being fugitives and label all of them criminals by default.
An administrative warrant doesn’t mean shit to a judge. She had every right to tell them to go talk to her boss, and in the meantime? She opened the back door.
That’s it. That’s the crime worthy of arresting a judge. A middle aged Milwaukee woman doing her goddamn job.
She opened a door and let the defendants - who had entered her courtroom legally and voluntarily - depart safely.
These are thugs, these are kidnappers, these are criminals. Obstructing ICE is NOT obstructing justice, because ICE is the one breaking laws and stripping away the rights of every American. They act without legal authority, they act without judicial approval, and they act without any regard for freedom, or rights, or basic human dignity.
It is the goddamn right and responsibility of every American to obstruct ICE at every opportunity, because there is no justice when Judges are forced to bow to them.
I’m not saying any of your points aren’t salient but I saw this story and thought nothing of it, at first. Take it for what it is, the details aren’t entirely clear to me, yet. I’m not going to be like the GOP and follow marching orders just because I read a comment online.
Edit:
I expected the down votes and it’s really sad you won’t even hear me out.
Edit2:
How’s does it feel to be a victim of media narrative? Just letting them jerk your chain because you have no chill?
People are likely willing to hear you out, but you haven’t exactly made a point to hear out.
What details do you find unclear? From what I’ve read, the judge notified ICE that they didn’t have a valid judicial warrant to arrest their target. After that, the judge allowed ICE’s target to leave the courthouse, presumably because the immigrant was not required to comply.
There’s a growing pattern of ICE attempting to take advantage of people’s lack of ability to identify a judicial warrant to pressure them into compliance and/or arrest. I think it’s reasonable to caution anyone that has to interact with any agency that’s known to be shady.
If that were the entire story, maybe I agree, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the entire story.
Maybe you should read the entire story, it’s not that long.
I’m going to warn you: There’s a lot that ICE and the administration have gotten away with because of people claiming “No way. Their actions would be too ridiculous if that’s what it was. There must be more to it.”
What we knew already even before scarce details emerged:
- Judges are extremely slow to take deliberate actions, to affirm their position as a fair arbiter that gives all sides chances to respond
- ICE has scarcely ever provided sufficient evidence for many of their arrests, including most of the high-profile ones
- The immigrants involved in this crime showed no indications of being violent or dangerous (even though ICE claimed they were)
So no, I don’t think ICE can be given benefit of doubt in this case. Every officer involved with this one can be arrested - and they can provide their argument when they go on trial.
Why not? What other details do you know?
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The stance is correct. ICE as an agency is a threat to our democracy. Debating the nuance doesn’t help with the point that ICE is able to internally determine who needs to go. With the state of the immigration system and threat to due process people should be standing up to what they believe is wrong. Personally, I think what the judge did was right when the man was there on a pretrial hearing for a seperate criminal matter.
As to the case, a previous 2011 directive for ICE to avoid arrests in or near courthouses was rolled back by Trump. That’s the same one that included sensitive areas such as schools. So now, under executive direction, they can enter public spaces such as courthouses to effect arrests. This has the chilling effect of having persons accused of crimes in local communities avoid court dates and further erodes due process.
Alltogether, ICE wasn’t wrong here procedurally and by the the letter of the law. However morally it’s all sideways. We don’t know if that man would have been transported to another state detention center, given access to a lawyer or even allowed to contact his family. Seeing how the admin has operated, he likely would never have gotten a court date to even review his immigration case.
If you interfere with ICE you can face criminal charges. That’s what they’re pinning on this judge.
So the system by design is f-d up. Notice how on a federal level no officials or anyone else has been arrested for violating due process rights of individuals in those high profile deportation cases? It’s a crazy double standard and the administration will likely pump this case up to show that they have all the power–including (albeit here with a local judge) over the judiciary.
Again, ICE is wrong and what the government is doing to immigrants is wrong. It’s a broad threat to our rights and they’re just getting bolder by the day. Operating legally does not mean you are operating morally.
Okay, I’ll hear you out. What details do you need clarified to be concerned that ICE is interrupting court to arrest people?
I need to know if they have broke any laws by doing so. I don’t care if it’s a judge. I can’t be advocating for the trump administration follow rule of law and at the same time advocating anyone democrat leaning bending the rules to their liking. At no point has any one I consider a legal authority laid our the federal governemnts case and the judges case.
I may very well be on OPs side but what I see is a lot of dust getting kicked up and that usually means the trump propaganda machine is ramping up. It’s looks like bait to me and it’s probably a case the federal government will easily win in the court of public opinion so I’m not going to stick my neck out when it means my credibility is on the line when discussing other, more pressing, matters like Abrego Garcia.
I may very well be on OPs side but what I see is a lot of dust getting kicked up and that usually means the trump propaganda machine is ramping up.
Alright, I will give you far more good faith than you’ve shown me.
You’re not really giving anyone a lot to work with in this thread, but if you’re done jerking your own chain about us being… what? Slaves to the narrative?
This is just extremely cyclical and unproductive poochie. Your reasoning for questioning the public outcry against the FBI arresting a judge… is because people being upset usually means this administration wants them to be upset?
… And not because they may have - yet again - crossed a line that would upset reasonable people?
All of the following is from the FBI’s side of the story.
A man appeared at court for legal proceedings related to charges of domestic violence. His alleged victim(s) - that is, the people accusing him of the crime - were also present. (This would later be a shocking revelation by the Attorney General as if it was some unusual and dangerous situation)
ICE arrive without proper legal documentation to compel the judge to allow them into her courtroom. They demand to arrest her defendant. She tells them they don’t have the right warrant, and to talk to the Chief Judge. While they do so, witnesses allege she instructs the defendant to leave through the “jury door”, or the door at the back of the courtroom.
The agents realize, and chase the man outside the building and arrest him. The FBI later arrests the judge for obstruction of justice and claims she “misdirected” the agents.
All of that is how the administration themselves have described the story, and I invite you to explain to me why I shouldn’t be furious. Why you think we should be upset about Kilmar instead when the two situations are obviously intrinsically linked.
They are trying to make judges afraid of interfering so that they can keep kidnapping and concentrating people like Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This woman was trying to stop them from making another man disappear.
I need to know if they have broke any laws by doing so.
Yes? The whole point is that they had the wrong paperwork and were not legally allowed to arrest the guy whose case the judge was presiding over.
So they have arrested two judges. ICE and FBI are traitors.
People should start reporting illegal immigrant MA13 members at the homes or Republican officials
Please remember: the ICE “arrests” are KIDNAPPINGS BY NON-UNIFORMED CIVILIANS. UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.
If you see a gang of 4 dudes with beards and guns and jeans and polo shirts … treat it like the kidnapping it is.
I get your sentiment and feel the same way, but that’s just adding death to the equation. I honestly think that is exactly what they want. If they detain you, you still have access to lawyers and others who are working to protect these people. If you’re dead, you can’t to any of that. You can’t defend yourself. The action alone will make you a ‘terrorist’ and therefore justify their actions.
It fucking sucks.
El Salvador is a death sentence, with a load of abuse on top. Better to break some ICE and be ended, than to live out your final days in a concentration camp.
If they detain you, you still have access to lawyers and others who are working to protect these people.
Have you been skipping the news for weeks?
No. There are plenty of lawyers and groups (ACLU) working to get these people to a judge. Hell, even the Supreme Court ruled that the deportations must stop to give them due process.
Are they following those orders? I don’t think so.
But to say that there aren’t people fighting for these people is just flat out, blatantly and categorically wrong.
How does Muhmud Khalil have a lawyer if what I said was wrong?
Have you been skipping the news for weeks?
You seem to be choosing the few people who were able to get a lawyer in time… In your hypothetical, that is not guaranteed or even something I’d bet on. And you are also pointing out that they won’t obey judges orders anyways so… I’m very confused as to what argument you think you are making.
Anyone who sees anyone being kidnapped should do their civic duty to stop it. Just because it suddenly seems to be government representatives that are doing the kidnapping now does not change that. You don’t know which it is.
I do wonder how many people have already been disappeared with no cameras around and they are just “missing” according to their families who can’t/don’t want to go to the cops in case it was the cops all along.
You wont get a chance to defend yourself when they bag you up and send you to El Salvador. You can die in the streets protecting yourself or you can die in a gulag 5000 miles away. Your choice
access to lawyers
I don’t believe it would work out that way if you are detained and don’t already have numbers lined up. They are already skipping due process anyway…
I don’t want violence. I just want to remind people that these are illegal government kidnappings.
It. Fucking. Sucks. Indeed.
If an ICE agent dies they can’t harm anyone else
An absurd suggestion. ICE agents looking to disappear you are merely volunteers for America’s new Necronaut Program. Necronauts are needed for the upcoming assassination of God, and invasion of heaven.
Trump’s Night of the long knives coming next
Oh thank God! I through the news was quiet today! So now we’re arresting judges. Checks and balances go out the window. Now its just a clear dictatorship.
We’ve had a few evil weeks, I thought we were going to get a dumb week for once.
This is not okay.
This is a coup
And thus, the Night of Long Knives begins.*
Edit: The AP, as of 15 min ago has posted an update: “Dugan was taken into custody by the FBI on Friday morning on the courthouse grounds, according to U.S. Marshals Service spokesperson Brady McCarron. She appeared briefly in federal court in Milwaukee later Friday before being released from custody. Her next court appearance is May 15.”
Thank goodness, she has been released- even if she is still going on trial for a trumped-up charge.
accusation is:
“intentionally misdirected federal agents away” from Eduardo Flores Ruiz as agents were attempting to arrest him at her courthouse last week.
so this isn’t about her ruling against trump, but her directly protecting an individual from ice….
so it’s not the long knives yet, she a hero, but it’s not the mass revenge murders… yet
so this isn’t about her ruling against trump, but her directly protecting an individual from ice….
Actually it’s very indirect. The accusation implies that she told ICE agents “he’s over there!” and scattered like a cartoon distraction. In reality, she told them they had no jurisdiction in the court, and that they had to go talk to her boss.
That’s not misdirection, that’s just normal workplace behavior. They don’t have jurisdiction in the courtroom, therefore they were not pursuing justice in the courtroom, therefore it can’t be obstruction of justice to tell them to fuck off.
That’s just the official language. They may not kill her, but they are going to remove anyone that gets in their way is what this says to me.
They’re going to use her as an example for the justification to arrest other judges as well. This is unprecedented and is going to lead to open violence in the streets.
It doesn’t have to match. It just has to rhyme.
i get it, we’re just not there yet and there’s still time to buy guns before it happens.
a judge can’t lie to federal agents who are trying to arrest someone in their courtroom. It sounds like she did.
this should be encouraging, if anything… this judge put herself on the chopping block in order to defy an immoral but legal order… she’s also probably well versed in the law.
this is the kind of resistance we need! a great ally, and a heroic act…
a martyr.
when they start arresting judges who make rulings they don’t like, that’s the night of long knives rhyming
we should worry about getting this judge elected into political office or something….
and also practice target shooting…
a judge can’t lie to federal agents who are trying to arrest someone in their courtroom. It sounds like she did.
She didn’t give them false information at all, she just told them to go talk to her boss.
And a federal agent can’t try to arrest someone in a courtroom without a judicial warrant. It sounds like they did.
If it’s true. These could be manufactured charges. I don’t trust Patel or the Trump administration to be honest about that.
Patel in his tweet wrote that the FBI believes Dugan “intentionally misdirected federal agents away” from Ruiz as agents were attempting to arrest him at her courthouse.
“Thankfully our agents chased down the perp on foot and he’s been in custody since, but the Judge’s obstruction created increased danger to the public,” Patel said in the post.
And they all clapped at the end.
certainly could be completely fictional charges… if anyone is equipped to fight that, it’s a judge…
That’s if they give the judge due process, and don’t just immediately claim she’s guilty- kinda like they’re doing to people they’re deporting already. Not a stretch to just skip her due process at this point.
We can play what-if all day long, but that doesn’t make it true.
that would be a HUGE stretch
Unarmed liberals need to think about arming themselves.
fuck liberals but yes, everyone not in the trump cult should be armed
We are a long way off from getting rid of capitalism. Best to deal with the liberals and work toward moving left from there. The US has a long way to go.
btw, didn’t the liberals articulate exactly why Patel should’ve been blocked from his appointment to the DOJ, and then approve him anyways?
#maskoff they’re working for the same team, and it’s the oligarchs vs democracy
my enemy’s enemy is my friend…
but most liberals in power seem to be double agents… saying the party line but doing almost nothing for it….
She asked the ICE agents to wait for the end of the hearing to arrest him.
So they arrested her.
that isn’t “misdirected”, but thanks….
do you have a source for this?Archive.is link to CNN story to get around paywall
Kash Patel also took down the statement claiming she misdirected them.
wouldn’t interrupting a court hearing mean that ICE was obstructing justice?
i suppose she was supposed to have him taken into custody and not allowed to walk out of the courthouse? or since he ran out after he knew ice was there for him, that means she told him in court?
at least everything in the courtroom was recorded… she should have a good case and lawsuit against the FBI….
btw, congress should’ve blocked Patel
The problem with the MAGA/Nazi comparison is not that MAGA isn’t as evil, it’s that they’re less competent.
it’s that they’re less competent
Not sure if that’s true actually, the Nazis were supremely incompetent as well. It just doesn’t take that much competence to smash a delicate balance like the separation of powers. You basically need control of one the three branches of government and you are good to try, Trump controls two and this news is about him smashing the third.
And why is that a problem? It sounds like a hindrance to them, which is a definite good thing.
Stupid is not the same as harmless. They routinely harm themselves gleefully. They can’t comprehend the full consequences of their own actions. That makes them dangerous.
There are many flavors of stupid, many of them are just plain evil.
I didn’t say they were harmless. I said their incompetence only helps their opposition.
The Nazis were more competent and still lost. How would being less competent than that help them in any way?
They are causing generational damage to the country. Just because their incompetence doesn’t help them doesn’t mean it isn’t still hurting us. That’s the opposite of helping.
Again, I never said they weren’t causing harm. You’re conflating the concepts of aid and beneficence.
Trump and his ilk being in power is not beneficial to the country, but their sheer stupidity in attempting to achieve their goals aids their opposition in stopping them.
And you’re not understanding the type of harm idiots do as opposed to smart evil people. Take immigration. A smart evil person might revoke visas and deport illegal aliens for small things not previously done. They could do this while shielding themselves legally by working within the constraints of the law. The opposition would be powerless because they stay within the law. These ass clowns are deporting legal aliens to countries they have been explicitly protected from being sent to, detaining US born citizens, threatening to deport people to countries they have no connection to, and myriad other completely illegal and unconstitutional things. In a perfect world the opposition could hold them accountable in court. But the opposition is still trying to fight “fair” and twiddling their fucking thumbs.
So this abso-fucking-lutely is not a good scenario because they are stupid. Way more harm is being done and the opposition isn’t doing a fucking thing.
Loading my firearms as we speak
Mine stay loaded. 6 mags for the rifle. It seems like overdoing it to my wife but I will not go to a camp. The shit RFK has proposed puts people like me in danger, even though I’m a cis straight white male. Even if I wasn’t on the list so to speak, I would be armed and ready because the people they have targeted are my countrymen. Citizen or not.
Fucking idiot racists can’t get it through their heads that they’re not going to stop with brown and trans people.
Nah, this is more akin to the Gleichschaltung. The Night of the Long Knives was the Nazis purging their own.
I disagree- I think Gleichschaltung has been underway since day one. This is a much more heinous overstep of the executive branch, imo
Gleichschaltung took a bit of time for the nazis.
The Night of the Long Knives is only applicable if the judge herself were a nazi who is seen as a potential threat due to being slightly differently aligned than the main faction.
It’s like a program and it concerns me.
Do you mean pogrom?
My local branch of the ICE Enforcement and Removal division is not answering calls. It rings and rings without end.
I don’t see any mention of a warrant.
Not that I’m surprised by that, but to say this is an “escalation” is an understatement.
This is a declaration of absolute power.
Edit: she was released on bond. Meaning a magistrate validated a warrant. Who signed the warrant?
Editl 2: Magistrate Dries did, yesterday. FBI Agent Lindsay Schloemer filed the complaint. Interestinginly Dugar wasn’t the only judge who told the ICE officers to fuck off (in legal terms). She just told them then defendant and his attorney they could leave because ICE didn’t have the correct warrant.
America, this is your five alarm fire. If everything else wasn’t enough to get you moving, dear God please let this be it.
Get out and protest. Get talking to the other people at those protests. Build your network. You’re going to need it for what is coming.
This is how civil war starts. If the judiciary starts issuing arrest warrants over this unlawful kidnapping, they may need to deputize officers that are not under the control of the trump admin which could pit our armed forces against each other. Best case scenario is the judiciary finds the arrest unlawful and the FBI backs down because they’re being threatened with contempt.
Buy guns
I fear the majority of trigger-pullers are pro-trump and pro-deportation, no matter where they live. I fear that “revolution” will entail the United States’ progressives getting absolutely brutalized until the regime seizes total control.
Valhalla before El Salvador.
you might be surprised. there are those who are very open about owning weapons, but there are just as many who do not flaunt what they’re equipped with. there are still lots of reasons left-leaning people might own guns, like hunting, self defense, pure hobby shooting, etc. i think progressive people have been stereotyped as anti-gun because they tend to be anti-kids-getting-shot-in-school, but they’re not quite the same thing.
it’s possible progressive might be out-gunned, but it’s by no means a guarantee.
Liberal gun owner here, yup.
Wife wanted to get me a tactical looking cross body bag but I was like, “nah, I need something Italian, leather, and looks like I keep my lip balm in it instead of my gun”.
Anarchist gun owner here. Yep. Granted mine are mostly WW1 era pieces of history and others are nerdy but yeah… there are lefties out there who are properly legally licensed.
I’ve always wondered if there is a measurable difference in shooting proficiency between the left and right politically. The majority of lefties I know who shoot are pretty well trained, took classes, take safety very seriously etc… A not small chunk of the right I see at the range literally scare me with how they shoot. And those are the righties that actually practice.
The armed lefties might be outnumbered, but they might be better trained.
I’m no expert, but I feel like anybody who hasn’t faced actual, real combat involving guns is just going to shit themselves and fire wildly the first time they do face it - that’s if they don’t just take off running or faint instead. And most people on both sides of the political fence haven’t ever faced real combat.
I have read a lot of war memoirs, and the one common thread running through all of them is that a soldier/pilot/gunner/whatever is utterly useless their first few times in battle, regardless of their training.
I’m talking about the police, the federal agents, national guardsmen and regular army. The people who are ostensibly trained to shoot people. I don’t know if there is enough sympathy in the establishment to mount a meaningful resistance. I don’t like our odds if they mount a united front against a disparate population of scared but armed civilians, banal arguments about drone strikes and such aside.
good point and not something to be trivialized. it would be devastating and the toll to life and limb would be high. but i take solice in the fact that even then, they’d be greatly outnumbered by non-establishment citizenry. im just saying it wouldnt be a landslide victory and theyd face a (probably) reasonably well equipped guerilla resistance force that wouldnt just fade away.
side note, i also find the drone arguments to be kind of irritating. technically yes they could carpet bomb the US and drone strike every apartment building where some resistance leader is living, but then they’d just be the king of a wasteland.
Learn how to use the tools at your disposal y’all.
They may be able to defend the farmland but they won’t be able to hang when it gets to urban combat.
You’re not wrong, but this has nothing to do with the armed forces. I went down a rabbit hole at one point regarding what a “duly sworn” officer is. My conclusion was that if a judge needed to have someone arrested, they can reach out to any public police officer who has sworn an oath to the Constitution. Each state has its own groups of duly sworn law enforcement officers, and if a Federal judge doesn’t trust the US Marshals (who are part of the DoJ) they can likely reach our to State or local police to enforce their orders.
That’s the problem. If a deputized officer that is part of a local police force or national guard ends up having to arrest members of the DoJ, it could result in a standoff and give an excuse to our Cheeto in chief to declare martial law. I really fucking hope that doesn’t happen or that our generals force him to back down but I very much see that as a possibility.
I mean, you do understand that the Judiciary being the ones to push back is the only legal & constitutional route we can get out of this, right?
I hate to say it, but while Trump himself is pretty weak and just in it to save himself & for money, many of the people around him want nothing but power. And they are using Trump for that since he somehow continues to enthrall the populous.
Besides hoping the administration willingly decides to stop & undo the things it’s doing, I personally think the judiciary pushing back is the only thing you should hope for. In my eyes, it is the only path left with any chance of nonviolence, besides again, a willing change.
Do you have an alternative for me?
Qualified immunity applies to the executive branch, not to the judiciary. Cops aren’t getting arrested for this.
Senators, governors, and mayors of “sanctuaries” are going to be close behind.
Once the non-loyal judges are imprisoned, everyone else who isn’t white and Republican will also be on the chopping block.
I wonder if militias need to grow because I believe Trump will use everything in his power to destroy the liberals and any opposing force. Military could soon fraction and people will take sides, as one party wants to protect the constitution while the others oppose. Remeber our country was born based on the constitution…We are on the right side of history cause it reflects core American values. You decide to errode that then your not a true American. They will always be traitors considering they are freely defying the constitution now…fuck them and I cant wait til their day comes.
