They don’t care.
Also they will claim that the death of communism is some widely agreed upon number that is corroborated by numerous organizations and sources.
In reality it is literally like the one single ‘study’ that proved the autism/vaccine connection. It came entirely from the Black Book of Communism in 1999, and all but the main author disavowed it, and despite the obsession with wanting to reach 100 million. The absolute max it could find was 94 million with a ‘most likely’ number of 64 million.
So when they give a death toll of ‘conservatively 100 million’ they are literally pulling it out of nowhere.
What communist country would you like to live in?
China, Cuba, Vietnam. The first two have a higher life expectancy than the US, the richest country in world history.
Right now? China and Vietnam are doing pretty well.
That’s not what I asked
“What communist country would you like to live in?”
question is answered
“That’s not what I asked”
Hahahahaha!!
It was, though. What are you getting at?
You would prefer to live in one of those countries?
Kinda? I have my family here, so I’d rather my country become socialist like they are.
How many people died in Soviet Russia again? I forgot
4·3 hours agoEdit: wait your saying Soviet Russia which means only the RSFSR
Liberals crying about the death toll from communism, when said made up number includes Nazis killed in the Easter theatre.
Liberals mourning nazis out of sheer ignorance seems telling
The people killed by US soldiers in vietnam war also included too. It’s messed up.
Levels of whataboutism that would make conservatives proud. Truly quality Lemmy content.
Comparing numbers is not whataboutism. That’s literally why numbers exist in the first place, to compare and count.
Explain?
Average “whataboutism” fan vs average “comparative analysis” enjoyed
Those are libertarians, the"I got mine and fark everybody else" crowd, not liberals.
Communists are liberals, it’s funny seeing how many liberals in the fediverse use it as a slur. Even the anarchists look down on the anti-government people.
And yeah Libertarians are liberal as well, the problem is including everyone else that isn’t authoritarian.
In what manner are communists “liberals?” Why are communists capitalists in your eyes?
Liberalism isn’t a capitalist ideology
See you don’t know what the term liberal means.
It has nothing to do with capitalism.
Communism doesn’t have a government, that makes them liberals.
Liberal is when no government…
Liberalism is an ideology supporting private property and individualism. Communism doesn’t have a state, but it does have administration, which some consider government, and communism lacks private property.
If you have an administration then you create a class struggle that will lead to oppression.
You have private property because the state (public) doesn’t own it, the people do. (That’s private since you seem confused)
No, administration isn’t class, and ownership is collectivized rather than individual. This is very basic.
Can the administration control what the commune does? Laws? Policing?
If so then given time the people who seek it will elevate that position.
Public ownership under communism doesn’t mean the government (or administration to use your term without a difference) owns it. It means the population has control over whether it is helping (keep) or hurting (remove) society. And the workers are at the forefront of that not politicians or owners.
You’re aware that liberalism views landowners as a scourge of society because they make money without adding anything to the world but you cannot view said viewpoint from a communist perspective.
I’ll give you another crazy idea; political parties/governments are corporations. They will put their own survival above that of the people they represent.
Why do you feel confident to speak on a subject you have clearly spent zero time informing yourself?
Taking political science courses in university and having many books is why I can call out people using liberal incorrectly.
You might want a refund on that degree.
You are indeed incorrectly calling people out.
Maybe you can wipe your ass with those books for all the good they did you.
I took political science classes in college too. They taught the political compass. They lamented ‘polarization.’
If you were too stupid as a child to see that you were being fed slop you can be forgiven. It’s time to use your adult brain to reexamine those things.
Taking political science courses in university
Ah, that explains it
that isn’t authoritarian.
Made up western anti-communist propaganda term
Communists aren’t authoritarian and the concept predates communism. (Communism is a reaction against oppression so arguing criticism against oppression is anti-communist doesn’t make sense)
Ngl I don’t blame anarchists. Public schools explicitly said “communism is when government doess stuff.”
Yep according to them every hunger related death under a communist government is communists fault but the many famines under capitalism don’t count against their favorite system.
Or like the Memorial to Victims of Communism in Canada that was mostly Nazis and collaborators on it.
I wonder if it would be fairer to count all of them from both sides or have some more selective metric, though that cab be pretty hard to create
When you ignore established agricultural science because it’s too capitalist, and your crops fail, starving a significant portion of your country, yeah that’s kinda the governments fault.
When bourgeois kulaks burn crops to resist collectivization, it’s the the communists government that’s ignoring science. The more you know
Sitting alone in the highest tower of your mind palace, curtains drawn, coming up with things that happened in the outside world through pure wisdom and common sense
“What exactly am I talking about?” you say, “Well isn’t it obvious?! Everybody knows!”
“communists hate science after all!” you add after a moment’s pause.
Don’t be silly, I ask the nice robed dudes outside to tell me what’s going on in the world in the form of a cool shadow puppet theater.
Also comparing the millions of dead from a single country to the millions dead in a global system is a bit disingenuous
The difference is that for the people dying under capitalism, the system is working as intended, and for the people dying under communism, it is not. In both cases, the leaders don’t really care, because it works for them.
When you lift out millions out of poverty and increase life expectancy significantly it’s the communist leaders not caring. The more you know
Yes, because it is never comes at their own expense through self-sacrifice. True leaders eat last, not first.
Anyone know where this image is from? I keep trying to find it but have never been able to.
The guy is “Michael Does Life”
Holy shit, thanks. Always thought it was pyrocynical XD
Theres like 3 different tags in the image.
Too bad they’re all laid over each other so you can’t read them.
Not that it would lead to the source, anyways
People* who talk about the death toll of communism when you bring up 10-20 million dying to poverty caused by capitalism every year.
It’s pretty much a liberal thing.
Monarchists, far right people etc. would probably react the same. Maybe discounting people on the right who are anti-capitalist but I’m not sure how large of a group that is
I’ve said it elsewhere, but In my opinion, beyond simply being for progressing onto the next mode of production (at this time socialism) vs remaining on our current or going backward (capitalism, monarchism, etc), I don’t think comparing ideologies by how far they are on this “spectrum” actually makes much sense.
For example, I don’t think comparing Marxists and anarchists by how “left” we are is a useful metric. Both of them are on the left, but trying to do a comparison outside of the differing propositions and analysis leads into contradictions and absurdities when trying to make it fit onto a clean spectrum. The same goes for the right.
All that is to say that personally, I use left and right by our present moment, and don’t put too much effort into analyzing how far left or right something may be considered. Liberalism was left during the French Revolution, against the monarchy, but we are several hundred yeard beyond that now and capitalism is dominant, not monarchism. The present divide is socialism vs capitalism, and the few monarchists that exist don’t really have much of an impact on that.
Make sense? This was kind of a ramble.
I just meant that “liberal” doesn’t cover all the people who would hold the sentiment pictured in the meme. A lot of ardent anti-communists are also against liberalism and can’t be really described as liberal imo.
I think the group that holds those views, ie monarchists, etc, is very, very small and not really relevant. That’s more my point.
There’s all kinds of authoritarian ideologies that are incompatible with liberalism. Not unfortunately that uncommon, especially nowadays that that shit has had a resurgence
Liberalism itself, in that it upholds capitalism, is “authoritarian.” Not sure what you’re getting at, ideologies all vary in quantity of holders and historic importance, I see no reason to pretend monarchists are equally as relevant to the right as liberals.
And a Republican thing. Did you forget about the even larger group of people who believe in capitalism even more? I agree that the hand-winging “oh, maybe we’ll vote in a better president in a few years, let’s wait things out” crowd is a pain, but the sentiment that “capitalism is the best we’ve got” is championed primarily by people even further to the right than them.
Republicans are liberals too, for what it’s worth. When leftists refer to liberals, we don’t exclusively mean those that support the DNC. Either way, though, if liberals ultimately wrap around to supporting capitalism even if they don’t have as strong an attachment to it, they still end up supporting capitalism and desiring its persistence.
Both are shit
Dumb
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No you didn’t quit lying
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Are you talking about the Shining Path of Peru? The Gonzaloite terrorists? I don’t think anyone on Lemmy actually supports them, at least not that I’ve seen, and they never actually implemented anything but instead just slaughtered peasants and performed terrorist attacks.
So you grew up in a country where the US staged a coup? Like I said quit lying
Could it be that the imperialist puppet sending death squads has something to do with things being bad?
No, it’s the communists who are bad
Lol as if we can’t hate both.
why? And why count hunger deaths under communism as marks against but don’t apply this to capitalism much more deaths?
A lot of assumptions being made off of my shitty one line joke, starting to feel like you have an agenda you’re trying to push and are attempting to start a fight you’ve already had in your head.
I maybe a dumbass, but I’m not idiot.
Oh now that you got pushback, it’s suddenly a joke😂
Push back? Ohhhh you mean the downvotes and shit, nah it was always a joke, I make shitty jokes, sometimes they land, sometimes it pisses off a bunch of random people online and today it pissed off a bunch of people online.
You’re deffo both, my guy.
Nice!
Lol as if we can’t hate both.
please explain what a joke is and how this can be understood as one
Nah I’m all good, I’ll leave the interpretation up to y’all.
I wasn’t expecting you to. I’m saying you’re full of shit.
Oh no, a random stranger on the internet is angry with me, what ever will I do…
I have received negative feedback, must be doing something right!
Chickenshit response
Hahah, yeah.
Living up to your username
Both are true, this is a dumb argument and common bad faith fallacy.
You don’t know what a fallacy is
I choose you! Sophomoric invocation of a fallacy that doesn’t even apply in this situation!
Lol posting a link to a wikipedia article doesn’t actually help your case here
Even BBC doesn’t have it as one of their 7 ways to check
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240709-seven-ways-to-spot-a-bad-argument
how is it bad faith?
Because it intentionally neglects the harm caused by the Great Leap Forward, or various soviet famines. The statement is designed to deflect attention and responsibility from A to B and use hyperbole to create outrage.
Its possible to argue that both China and the Soviet Union were not actually communism but rather authoritarianism but for the sake of common understanding we will refer to them as they refer(ed) to themselves.
So did millions of people die because of “communism?” the facts say yes. So do millions of people die because of Capitalism? the facts say yes.
Both are true statements, and using hyperbole and outrage to deflect or minimize one or the other is in bad faith.
This is pure projection. The meme doesn’t ‘neglect’ anything.
The statement is designed to deflect attention and responsibility from A to B and use hyperbole to create outrage.
Your objection is essentially that you want to label something as ‘bad’ but not allow the necessary discussion of ‘relative to what?’
Your system deliberately murders an order of magnitude more people but we’re not allowed to talk about it because you say so and we all give a huge shit what you have to say because you’re so well read on the subject lol
We are talking about it, and its not my system its the one I am trapped in, and I still would not want to live in either Russia or China.
I also dont want to live in the US, I want the Star Trek future now, all people have value.
China is by far the closest country on Earth to that Star Trek future. No other country is as developed and is presently socialist. It has a long way to go, but is already overtaking capitalist countries.
there is no amount of propaganda that would make this believable. The fact that there is forced labor, and decent is punished is just as unacceptable in China as it is in the US. When I can freely and safely criticize Xi Jinping I might be interested. There are lots of aspects of China that I love and want to see but the authoritarian government and regional provincial governors are NOT something i want to risk.
China has outlawed slavery and forced labor. Capitalists trying to manipulate the media is punished, correct, but that’s something widely supported by the people. China is democratic, and the people support their system, because it works:
All states are “authoritarian,” in that all are embedded within class struggle and represent the ruling class. Dissent is punished in the US and in China, the difference is that the capitalist class is oppressing workers in the US, while the working class is oppressing capitalists in China.
You owe it to yourself as someone desiring a socialist future to genuinely try to understand the Chinese system, and why it’s so widely supported by its people.
kinda don’t give a shit what you have to say in response to my criticism when you aren’t going to respond to the criticism at all
you can claim to love all good things and hate all bad things
literally zero bearing on what you said or what I said in response
I think that’s because we have a difference of perspective on degrees of bad. I think all deaths caused by capitalism are bad, and equal bad to all the deaths that are the result of authoritarian countries calling themselves communist.
So i fundamentally disagree with the “relative to what” because a life is worth the same regardless of where they live and who they are.
We are able to, and I am talking about the harm, and I am pointing out that this meme is designed to create an emotional response to the 2nd point and not to both points. Thats all, its manipulative and propagandist which makes it in bad faith, and you are welcome to defend either position, I will just disagree.
I think all deaths caused by capitalism are bad, and equal bad to all the deaths that are the result of authoritarian countries calling themselves communist.
You want to obscure the larger number because you want the smaller number to look bad. We’re not allowed to talk about the larger number. We’re not allowed to criticize your side.
So what you just said is a fucking lie, isn’t it? If they were equal you would permit both be examined. You would admit that the one with the larger death count is worse. That’s the exact opposite of what you’re pushing for. Your agenda is at odds with reality.
You don’t actually care about people dying. Your actions betray your rhetoric.
So i fundamentally disagree with the “relative to what” because a life is worth the same regardless of where they live and who they are.
And there you go doubling down. Hollow rhetoric sidestepping the actual objection. Cynical. Deliberate.
I will just disagree.
And I think we can all put together why you disagree (you’re a nazi).
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That’s what happens when shitlibs see this, yes.
Ok liberal
This is a conservative talking point… Liberal and communism are left ideals…
Liberals are conservatives who favor nicer marketing.
Liberalism is right-wing, and is explicitly pro-capitalist and anti-communist.
Liberalism has been highjacked by conservatism and is actually a left leaning ideology
‘In most countries, classical liberalism is thought of as a right-wing ideology, but when classical liberal ideas made their debut, they were thought of as leftist.’
Liberalism was never highjacked, it was only “leftist” when monarchism was the standard. Liberalism is the standard now.
Liberalism is right-wing
I mean, you gotta define your spectrum. If you want to get French with it, the Monarchists are on the right and the Liberals are on the Left. The communists won’t really exist for another fifty years (as a European economic school).
Liberalism only exists “on the right-wing” in the modern era thanks to over a century of Socialist nation building. Even then, the very term is muddled by decades of fascist rebranding - first as Anarcho-Capitalists and then as National Socialists and then as Neo-Conservatives and then as Neo-Liberals and now in a return to White Nationalism - with “liberal” being embraced or rejected in turns as our corporate media needed it to be.
As a case in point, I challenge you to tell me whether liberals are libertarian. In Europe and Asia, they functionally are. In the Americas, they couldn’t be further from it in mainstream politics.
The political spectrum is full of double-speak. “Liberal” is a textbook case. It can mean anything and nothing.
If we’re being consistent, it’s an ideology centering private property and capitalism, which puts it on the right in the global context.
it’s an ideology centering private property and capitalism
That’s the economic angle. But it also promises a host of libertarian social reforms included within the free market system. What’s more, liberalism isn’t just an attempt to yank socialists back from their economic progressivism. They’re often efforts to balkinize the power base of local dictatorships and feudal aristocracies.
The original liberals were trying to break up the Old World feudal system, establish economic mobility through cross-border trade, and secularize states that had historically been married to a single branch of a particular religion. All of that was incredibly left-wing from the perspective of the theocrats and monarchists.
Hell, the whole pitch aimed at The Dictatorship of the Proletariat that liberals make is that Socialists/Communists are just Monarchists in disguise. Unipolar parties aren’t really democratic. Centrally planned economies aren’t really communally owned or beneficial. And atheist leaders are just advancing their lack-of-religion as its own kind of faith.
Are these liberals full of shit?
Yes
But the political spectrum is wide, and they’re nowhere near the right-most end of it.
I feel that this is just a consequence of trying to firmly place ideologies on a spectrum beyond whether they affirm capitalism or affirm socialism. I don’t tend to bother trying to compare how right or how left ideologies are, but instead judge the various left and right ideologies on their own propositions, which can’t be easily graphed.
Well liberals today forgot about equality so they can just fuck off
I mean, you gotta define your spectrum.
It’s not a spectrum
You guys ever think you’re being coaxed by the rich to create all these dividing groups. I sure do.
No, I don’t, because the rich persecute the orgs I work with.
Why don’t you think that? Wouldn’t it make sense that convincing groups to decimate and alienate themselves from the main body would benefit them politically? Or is this just a case of the left going off of vibes hopes and dreams
Liberals don’t help us. They have been in power before and do absolutely nothing.
Liberals aren’t a singular group. What do you do?
Liberals arent a singular group
They are when your definition of a liberal is material rather than aesthetic.
I don’t think the rich are creating communist orgs that accurately explain the problems today just to divide liberals from the left, considering liberalism by nature already supports the system the capitalists profit off of. If anything, your suggestion is going off of vibes, hopes, and dreams.
I didn’t say they were creating them. I am saying they’re targeting groups with more passion than brains
The rich do manipulate liberals into thinking they can get meaningful change through electoralism, but I don’t see what that has to do with leftists.
We’re not creating these, we are using words to describe how things are.
No you’re redrawing lines. It’s the new “walkaway” movement getting ready for the next election. You’re going to poison the votes.
No, lmao. Politics isn’t entirely about elections, stop it with this conspiracy theory nonsense.
“We’re not making up new words, we’re just redefining old ones!”
Dude do you even know what liberal means?
Liberalism is an ideology founded in a few core principles. Capitalism and the right to own property, the power of the government originating from the masses rather than god, and inalienable rights for its citizens.
You guys are the ones redefining old words cause you don’t like the idea of not being considered leftist anymore. The overton window has shifted since the 1700s, yall are centrists now.
Liberal policies aren’t just a singular thing. Because of these groups astro turfing they’re getting the usual gang of idiots to say there is only one group and that is the one that shares a few center right policies.
What do you think astroturfing is? Which groups are these?
We aren’t saying there aren’t different kinds of liberals, what we are trying to tell you is that liberalism is not a left wing ideology anymore. It is centrist and anti-communist. Yes you have left leaning liberals and right leaning. But that still only makes yall center-left and center-right.
Leftists issues with liberals is because liberals, no matter what are pro-capitalist and anti-communist. Communists are anti-property and liberals are pro-property. Yes a leftist has more in common with a left leaning liberal than they do a right leaning liberal, but that does not make their interests aligned. Historically anytime liberals and communists team up, communists get backstabbed. And more often than not, it never even gets to teaming up. Historically, liberals are the ones to team up with authoritarians to crush communists.
And I’m an anarchist. I trust Marxist communists just about as much as I do liberals. That is to say not much. And I have more interests aligned with a Marxist than I do a liberal
No one is redefining words here, though.
you’re being coaxed by the rich to create all these dividing groups
“Bad People tricked you into thinking that way” is such a shit way of engaging anyone politically.
It simultaneously serves to call the audience stupid and insert some nebulous outside agency as the scapegoat for failing to make your own case.
Like, if you want to rally people to all agree you fucking suck, there’s really no better way than to go to every individual group and say “I’m right, its obvious, and you’re just too dumb to notice.”
Didn’t answer what I asked. Being stupid is ignoring a question like this because of ego
And I don’t want to rally people. I’m honestly giving up on the left. I’ve watched them slash tires to protest … Cars. I’ve seen them defend blocking traffic even when we see how counter productive it is when it always produces footage of regular folks and emergency vehicles getting delayed. I’ve watched them Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I have seen zero effective strategies. But now I’m tired and things I wouldn’t call it I’ll say it now because I’m so fucking done watching people not realize this stuff. It’s walkaway 2.0
I’ve watched the left turn into something that is extremely toxic. There’s no social awareness. If you think what I’m saying is toxic or lacking in social awareness congratulations, that’s the strategy the left uses every single day now. There’s no effort, no consistency day to day other than areas that divide. It’s an ideology about burning bridges and purity tests
There’s no effort, no consistency day to day other than areas that divide. It’s an ideology about burning bridges and purity tests
Lol. Maybe try projecting less hard
So are you
Responds to an imperative with “so are you”, lol
Being stupid is ignoring a question
Bro, what?
Told you so
Do you losers actively try to make everyone hate you?
Are you funded by the billionaire elite to defend liberalism? Obviously we divide capitalist ideology from socialist/communist groups
😆 .ml
There’s the issue
you are in an ml com you dumb fucking lib.
Yea I can tell. Look at you.
Apparently you couldn’t tell, lol
“You’re from instance I don’t like” isn’t a particularly strong argument fyi
What is this?
Do you like r/thr_donald? Does not liking them invalidate your criticism for them.
You’re on world, does that mean you are pro genocide of Palestinians? 🤔
If the entirety of your criticism is where they’re from then it was never valid
