Bold assumption that ICE isn’t an active threat to myself and those I care about, and no matter what the election results show, ICE is still a bipartisan institution. What stops ICE is organizing, striking, and protesting, not whether or not I vote Green, PSL, etc. ICE doesn’t give a shit who people voted for, they aren’t a democratic institution, they are here to forcibly deport and kill people.
Enjoy your privledge, where you think voting is a meaningful way to resist ICE.
You’re tiring. Voting will not meaningfully advance the leftist movement beyond advertisement, and acting like this stance is counter-productive is harmful to getting meaningful change.
No, and the fact that you keep making the same false accusation speaks volumes. Do you know how many days MLs give up organizing, year round?
I don’t see why you think lying about my position is doing you any favors, I already told you I voted. The fact that you put such a huge emphasis on voting and arguing for it means you likely cannot be depended on to actually take to the streets and roll up your sleeves.
You can’t because you don’t vote.
I did vote in the last election, and do vote. You’re insistent on lying about the position of others even after we tell you. Further, you cannot take over the system legally and resist reversion, I’d love for you to give a single counter-example to what I already explained with the Paris Commune, Allende, etc.
You can’t otherwise because your movement can’t even coordinate (or is to apathetic) to vote; much less to storm the capital.
That’s like saying the Marxist movement is apathetic to building the world’s largest sand castle. Storming the capital isn’t going to do anything at the moment because there isn’t a clear vanguard party and the revolutionary moment isn’t yet here, and even if everyone voted Marxist it still wouldn’t change the system.
Are you allergic to addressing this?
No, you really aren’t.
No? The point is that taking the system over on a strictly legal basis leaves the institutions intact that can revert it to capitalism. We learned this back at the Paris Commune, and learned it again with Allende. Revolution is necessary because we must smash the state and replace it with a socialist one, we cannot merely take hold of a capitalist state and morph it into a socialist one.
No one is arguing that we shouldn’t, which is my point. Are you allergic to actually engaging with the points at hand, rather than consistently making them up to argue against?
PSL is the focus, and PSL is an ML party. Many of the groups mentioned are front groups, PSL has many, like CODEPINK and the ANSWER coalition. PSL also coordinates with other groups to more effectively push for change, rather than doing everything itself.
I did not say we should skip out on voting there, I said voting is not emphasized by Marxists due to not being capable of delivering results. I don’t know why you think that after centuries of reformists trying to vote for positive change that it will finally happen. Look at Allende, he was voted in and then immediately coup’d for it by Pinochet and the US Empire. Revolution is necessary.
Please show me one example of electoralism resulting in socialists taking power and being able to solidify it. Just one. Please also explain why you believe that this time it will be different and finally work.
No, I’m saying you’re fighting a losing battle by thinking you can get a left candidate through, so the way you treat elections should be to highlight the impossibility of getting a left candidate through so as to encourage actual activism.
Show me exactly where I say we should skip out entirely. Show me exactly how I am being counter-productive.
Here is PSL organizing strikes and protests to kick ICE out of MN. Stop fighting strawmen.
@[email protected] makes it out like I am saying we should only vote, but note I am not saying that. I am saying that ignoring elections is foolish of us.
But nobody is saying we should ignore elections. We are saying elections cannot get positive change. This is a massive difference, yet you act like it’s the same.
I am saying that they don’t help contribute much to overall leftist movements
How so? The overwhelming majority of groups that have succeeded in establishing socialism have been Marxists. No electoralist progressives have been capable of establishing socialism and solidifying it, ever.
and their lack of willingness to at least vote helps minimize our overall impacts as well
Marxists do vote, though. As I already proved, PSL runs campaigns. Marxists do not think it is useful for anything other than exposure, however, which is why Marxists stress how important it is to actually do stuff like organizing.
Like you said it happens ever 2years and you can’t spare an evening for it?
If someone can’t, there’s no reason to scold them for it, as it doesn’t make a practical difference.
Are you that busy… and still have not much to show for it?
I don’t know what you mean by this, Marxists have established socialism in numerous countries and control the largest economy in the world by PPP. This is far more than any electoralist has achieved.
We can do more than one thing at a time and it is foolish to ignore elections completely.
Nobody is saying to, though, just that electione cannot bring positive change.
If you personally are not organizing in real life, and instead just voting and hoping other people do all of the hard work for you, then you aren’t doing anything at all.
No problem!
You’ve been arguing against Marxists for not doing enough, though, because we correctly recognize that voting will not bring change. If you personally are not organizing in real life, and instead just voting and hoping other people do all of the hard work for you, then you aren’t doing anything at all.
This is nonsense, you’re arguing that making a school is equivalent to necessitating everyone gets thrown into a mass grave.
The minimum is to encourage everyone to actually organize, voting is secondary at best to that.