MP allegedly greeted a party colleague at German parliament building ‘with a heel click and a Hitler salute’
Berlin prosecutors say they have charged a member of the far-right Alternative für Deutschland party with making a Nazi salute in parliament.
The suspect allegedly “greeted a party colleague … at the east entrance to the Reichstag building with a heel click and a Hitler salute” in June 2023, the prosecutors said in a statement issued on Monday.
Making such a salute is illegal in Germany and is punishable by up to three years in prison.
The newspaper Bild named the politician as Matthias Moosdorf, 60, a member of parliament for Zwickau in the former East German state of Saxony.
charged with making nazi salute at Reichstag
Native german speaker:
No good comes from this. This is the equivalent threatening or intending for violence.
And yet, I’m told by another user, a free speech absolutist, that this is absolutely normal and should be protected.
this is absolutely normal and should be protected
I mean, to take a line from Inglorious Bastards
I ‘magine you’re gonna take off that handsome-lookin’ S.S. uniform of yours, ain’tcha?.. That’s what I thought. Now that I can’t abide… I mean, if I had my way… you’d wear that goddamn uniform for the rest of your pecker-suckin’ life.
I much prefer the Nazis who are wearing their beliefs on their sleeves.
Only problem is that they don’t ever come out of the woodwork until they’ve got safety in numbers.
The problem Germany has in the modern day isn’t a bunch of schlubs throwing up Nazi salutes. Its the much larger pool of industrial and media insiders who have goaded them into it, financed their little fascist friend-groups, and sponsored them to seize power to the benefit of the far-right plutocracy.
Liberals panick when they see the former, but they’re constantly trying to win over the latter. You can’t clean your house of insects if you keep trying to make friends with the Queen Bee.
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Do you think they just get charged without any evidence?
Nazi apologist
Wow, my comment was really misinterpreted. Not once did I condone Nazi ideology, nor provide any form of justification or apology to their ideology. I brought up an ethics debate regarding the practicality of a law confining the movement of one’s body. I asked about the merit of perception versus reality. Calling me a Nazi apologist completely misses the forest for the trees… and those weren’t even my trees.
I’m not a free speech absolutist. I just live in a society where a huge argument against this kind of legislation is the potential for abuse. Please forgive me for wanting to explore these concepts together, rather than hiding within my own ignorance like so many others do.
Democracy tends to come with law systems and due process to prevent this from happening. Unlike, you know, Nazism.
Obligatory, I haven’t read the article.
Well maybe start there then. Then you would know that there were several witnesses (he didn’t do it in an office in secret, but in the entrance lobby).
You would also know that the incident happened a while ago and the parliamentary review board has already stripped him of his immunity for this case. So a group of his colleagues already determined there is sufficient evidence for such an investigation.
If it’s so easy to slander and cause legal woes, as to say “they did a Nazi salute,
This is true of any crime. Unless you have more than somebody’s word to go on, there won’t be any kind of investigation. Moreover, as an MP the guy enjoys parliamentary immunity unless it is specifically lifted by a committee of his colleagues (which includes members of his own party).
would you still think these circumstances are fine if the claim of the salute were false
Yes. If an MP is accused of any crime, this is the normal process of investigation. Wether or not the accusation is true or not is precisely the point of this investigation.
political party member were arrested because someone disagreed with their ideology
Not just a party member, an MP specifically. And they were not arrested, just formally charged with a crime. And it wasn’t over an agreement of ideology, but for doing a very specific thing that is well known to be illegal (with exceptions for education and art). Now, if your ideology can not be expressed without doing a Nazi salute, then I guess, yes your ideology is illegal in Germany. Wether or not that is good or not, is left as an exercise for the reader.
What if it were a left leaning party member who received the allegation?
Presumably the same thing would happen except any non-AfD party would immediately conduct their own internal investigation and promptly boot any member that actually did this.
It’s always those you suspect the most
Worrying that, for those sans a fucking morel compass/shred of intelligence, the human meme memory for this shit might just be ~75 years…
‘Lebenslüge’, the myth that German racism began and ended with the Holocaust
You can’t re-nazify if you never de-nazified to begin with. Nazis were rebranded and re-incorporated into the new East and West German governments practically before the smoke was clear. While the Russians were quick to round up and execute more Nazis than their ratline-loving Capitalist peers, both governments’ police services were thick with former Wauffen SS officers by the turn of the decade.
We had Hitler’s Chief of Staff running NATO, ffs.
Despite his extensive knowledge and participation in war crimes, he later became a general for West Germany and served as head of the West German military from 1957 to 1961 as well as Chairman of the NATO Military Committee from 1961 to 1964.
They forgot they’re not at home.
They don’t charge you for doing the hitler salute in 'merica no more. Some glorify it.
As they did last time
Sauce https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/nazi-town-usa-scenes-summer-camp-nazi-town-us/
arrest them all. dissolve the party. explain this to the people that AfD is compromised by Russia to undermine Germany.
Just use the words “They are a national security threat,” and you can pretty much do whatever needs to be done.
Nazis are Nazis, you don’t need external interference claims (not questioning the claim itself) to arrest them all and dissolve the party. The reality is that this only gets done to leftist parties in Europe.
that would just make them martyrs.
Nonsense. Conservatives don’t do martyrdom well, because they don’t really care about other people, even their colleagues. They appreciate the initial outrage that the martyrdom causes, but creating and maintaining a martyr requires dedication and constant hyping of the martyrdom, and conservatives just don’t have it in them to care about anyone else that much.
Also, when it’s bad guys that get wiped out, people like that.
It’s called Defensive Democracy
no it won’t. that’s just an excuse to do nothing and continue to let manchurian candidates undermine the country.
i’m so sick and tired of this bullshit, faux-wisdom that we can do nothing about these problems and not enforce our laws, so just let these ppl run free to ruin everything. that’s just more propaganda from our enemies.
I generally get the reasoning behind the whole martyr thing but it just doesn’t work in this case. The individual is 1) in the country where the Nazis came to power in the first place, 2) is a member of parliament, 3) has now demonstrated that they wish to bring back the ideology which caused multiple genocides, the 2nd world war and the complete destruction of Europe. There’s “they are minuscule minority and have zero chance of gaining traction and so we only stand to lose by making them a martyr” and “they are already in parliament and part of a party that is the thinnest of veils for the Nazi party and are doing so in the backdrop of the rising popularity of the AFD and far-right politicians around the world”. No! This lesson has been learned in Germany. Knock the fucker down (put them in jail) and show no remorse. They don’t deserve a benefit of the doubt or leniency here.
No! This lesson has been learned in Germany.
This lesson was learned by the entire world! The problem is that the good people won, and we’re all so polite that we have even let the biggest enemy of the last century gain strength and rise again.
We need to learn the lessons of history and our mistakes and our experience, and stop being so polite to people who have made it very clear that they intend to enslave and murder us.
Embroider this on a pillow for the ages.
From the guys Wikipedia page:
“In 2024 Moosdorf accepted a part-time honorary professor position at Gnessin Russian Academy of Music in Moscow.
The school, financed by Russia’s culture ministry, made headlines just days after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, when a staff member performed a concert wearing a black sweatshirt with the letter “Z” on it, which symbolizes support for Moscow’s war.
“Music knows no ideological boundaries,” Moosdorf wrote on Facebook, adding that accepting the professorship is “a sign of understanding.”
“I want to give the young people there [in Russia] the feeling that they are not left behind in Europe,” Moosdorf said. He added that he spent three days in Moscow in September to give an inaugural lecture and plans to go back a few days every quarter to teach chamber music”
Seems like a reeeaaal nice guy huh /s
Music knows no ideological boundaries
What even does that mean? It’s fine to say or whatever you want, as long as you can put it in some musical context?
Imma write a jolly song then to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, with the chorus being “Murder, murder all dictators × 3 / Sic temper Tyrannis”, see how happy they are to ignore that one.
I’m guessing he’s talking orchestral music with no lyrics. But “___ is not ideological” or “___ is not political” is exactly the sort of thing people say about stuff that is constantly political. It seems like he was just bought by Russia.
“___ is not political” just pairs nicely with “I’m not into politics”. The perfect excuse to hold a political stance while also ignoring all the other political issues: moving the target so it matches where you hit.
Nazis doing a Nazi salute. Wow. So shocking.
Good job Germany. You’re giving platforms to your own past shame in the freaking government, and covering for their modern counterparts (Israel) in the same breath.
He got charged… Meaning it’s not ok and illegal
Yeah, but the political party this one person comes from (and exemplifies) is gaining ground rapidly in the German government.
Maybe then the problem is the people?
That’s how I took it when they said “Good job Germany.”
This post includes misinformation. Bild is not a newspaper.
While “Bild” is actually a horrible rag worth being published in England, this does not change the fact that AfD members are Nazis. And one was stupid enough to show it in the open.
Then what is it?
They’re saying Bild is a tabloid, which while accurate, is a type of newspaper.
Nope. A newspaper contains news. A tabloid contains headlines. I beg to differ.
Fair enough. It’s just a tabloid rag then.
Awful toiletpaper?
A hateful comic maybe
Why does it take in excess of 2 years to trial someone? Broken system
You can have a fair and equitable court system, or you can have a fast one; rarely if ever both. True justice tends to be slow and steady and helps to account for public witch-hunts and reduce risk of someone innocent being. People always say, “Yeah well this one is obvious!” but that’s not how justice works. It must be absolute. It must be there for the lowest of hanging fruit if it is to be there for the more nuanced cases just the same.
On the other hand, sadly, a slow and unfair one are not mutually-exclusive.
I’d prioritize violent offenses first, but also you do not know the details. Obviously the prosecution wants to assure they have an iron clad case when pursing a charge against a political figure. This is to ensure they are not accused of bias. The offense was 2 years ago, but you don’t know how long the investigation was. Also there are multiple ways for lawyers to delay trials. This is necessary to assure the accused get their full right to legal counsel. Also by giving the defense time it reduces the likelihood of mistakes that could be used to make an appeal.
So yeah lots of reasons
He was stupid enough to show it. The rest of that pack is not a iota better.
Should be punishable by firing squad.
Germany abolished the death penalty and for good reason.
You should never give the state the right to execute its own citizens
I would normally agree with you, but the paradox of tolerence comes to mind.
Just because you’re not willing to kill someone doesn’t mean you’re tolerating their behavior.
This is quite literally a post about this guy being charged with a crime. If he’s in prison for 3 years that’s going to derail his politics.
The state could also ban the AFD and probably should.
We don’t have to jump straight to capital punishment
A very reasonable take, in unreasonable times.
The state could also ban the AFD and probably should.
I guarentee they will regret not having done so sooner.
I have voted against the abolition of the death penality in Hesse back in 2018 (if i remember correctly) when there was a public vote on that matter… you never know when it may become handy…
It will never be handy. You should never trust the state to have that power over its citizens. There’s not a country on the planet I trust with that authority.
The death penalty, especially for political offenses, always seems nice when its your side in power.
If you reject the states power to execute it’s own citizens and make that idea unacceptable to the people then you take away one of the fascists’ best tools for oppressing the people.
The death penalty, especially for political offenses, always seems nice when its your side in power.
When “our side” is no longer in power, “they” might introduce the death penalty. What’s to stop “them”, once they are in control? Our good faith?
Limits on state power do not reliably prevent bad governments from abusing it, because bad governments can and do weaken and circumvent those limits. Are constitutional limits meaningfully stopping Trump? Did they keep Putin from the presidency?
In my view, this logic is another case of “when they go low, we go high”. The only reliable way to prevent the abuse of state power is to keep those who would abuse state power from attaining it in the first place.
If you reject the states power to execute it’s own citizens and make that idea unacceptable to the people then you take away one of the fascists’ best tools for oppressing the people.
Execution may be unacceptable to some of us, but –crucially– it is acceptable to those who would most abuse it, and they will cheer its reintroduction.
When “our side” is no longer in power, “they” might introduce the death penalty. What’s to stop “them”, once they are in control? Our good faith?
You can’t live your life by becoming worse than what those you fear may become. Honestly this is the rhetoric fascists use.
But to engage the point, you do this by making the death penalty something the populace opposes. If it becomes unthinkable a “non-starter” that’s a good thing.
Execution may be unacceptable to some of us, but –crucially– it is acceptable to those who would most abuse it, and they will cheer its reintroduction.
Then make the idea so repugnant only a minority of a minority of people would be okay with it.
Honestly I don’t get your argument. It’s basically you should be afraid that those people over there will kill you so you must kill them first. I think we’ve heard that one before…
As times are now use the systems in place that will prevent the rise of the AFD. If the fascists take control then feel free to start killing fascists. Be sure to be early, but you do that after the systems failed.
It’s like they haven’t even tried to disband the party and it’s jumping straight to murder. That’s not a nation anyone would want to live in
You propose to instill a deep conviction –that the death penalty is unacceptable– in a broad majority of people:
[…] you do this by making the death penalty something the populace opposes.
Then make the idea so repugnant only a minority of a minority of people would be okay with it.
How?
You put it like we haven’t tried. You put it like we can somehow do it. That contradicts current trends: political violence in particular and violence more broadly are becoming more and more acceptable again.
If the fascists take control then feel free to start killing fascists.
By then it will be far too late.
As times are now use the systems in place that will prevent the rise of the AFD. If the fascists take control then feel free to start killing fascists. Be sure to be early, but you do that after the systems failed.
The system and all its guardrails are actively failing before your eyes and have been for over a decade at this point. In fact, the system –capitalism– isn’t really failing, but simply succumbing to its own contradictions and evolving into its next stage: fascism.
It’s basically you should be afraid that those people over there will kill you so you must kill them first.
No. It’s neither fear nor hate. It’s not a tribal proposition either. It’s an instrument of last resort to preserve our chance of building a fair system.
