Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you’re clearly baiting with that title so if it’s alright with you let’s have some banter :P
If I say that
the meme is on point
material conditions in China are to some extent better than the US
the US is definitely worse to its own people and the world
I’m staunchly anti-capitalist
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
“Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production” is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but “ownership” suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.
The people must control the state, “win the battle of democracy,” and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
If you don’t consider any actually existing country that’s trying to build socialism “up to your standard”, then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren’t doing socialism correctly because they aren’t as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
Kinda? What do you think socialism looks like, if not the PRC? What about the PRC makes it not “genuine worker control,” or more broadly, Marxism-Leninism not “genuine worker control?”
Compared to the robust system of democracy in the US where corporations buy elections and the average person never gets to see a single policy enacted that benefits them? Is that what you’re comparing China to?
There’s no other timeline genius, this is what the US system had been building up to for decades. This is the intended result, not an accident.
You know, Sparta was the actually most peaceful city in Ancient Greece (usually, I’m talking when they’re not at war).
Edit: Also, there definitely is an algorithm that can determine if any other algorithm will halt or not (usually, I’m talking when you’re not feeding its own source code back into itself).
You’re just talking out your ass here lmao. This is objectively not true.
China has better infrastructure. Better education. Better affordable healthcare (and they are rapidly about to eclipse the US in our capabilities). 90+% of Chinese people own their own homes. China is one of the safest countries in the world.
What freedom are you talking about? The freedom to die on the streets from preventable illness? The freedom to work 40+hrs a week and live out of your car because you are priced out of housing? The freedom to get shot at the grocery store because someone with a gun is having a mental episode? The freedom to get brutalized by an unaccountable police force?
The PRC isn’t a western liberal faux-democracy, no, but it is a comprehensive unitary socialist democracy. Policy is usually pushed from the bottom-up, and there are comprehensive levels of provincial, regional, and national democracy. They abolished term limits for the presidential position, but that doesn’t mean “president for life,” Xi can be taken down democratically. It’s unlikely, though, considering he enjoys over 90% support.
As for being “authoritarian,” all states are. The difference with China is that the working class is in control of the state, rather than the capitalist class like in western countries.
I do, because it’s true, but I don’t see why that means there isn’t a point in discussing. Public ownership is the principle aspect of society, and capitalists are regularly punished for stepping out of line, while the working class has comprehensive democratic structures in place to pass the policies they want.
Pretty sure that’s a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It’s not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it’s a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.
Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?
But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What’s America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it “woke.”
Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.
The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.
“China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.”
Government approval is inversely correlated with poverty and terrible living conditions.
Therefore it is unlikely that “they def aren’t living like this”
It’s also especially odd if you’re mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?
And to be clear, I don’t even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.
Nothing I was said was about “independent studies” versus “studies”. I get your point, I’m just saying that wasn’t part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.
Brother I only said what I said because you literally said you thought me saying it was weird.
If you want to look at living standards you can compare cost of living, access to public transportation, cost of food, medicine, you name it. Its all cheaper and rapidly approaching parity with the west, if not already surpassing it.
But again living standards are often highly correlated with approval of your nation and the government running it.
Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you’re clearly baiting with that title so if it’s alright with you let’s have some banter :P
If I say that
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
Am I a “lib”?
“Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production” is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but “ownership” suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.
The people must control the state, “win the battle of democracy,” and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.
We’ve shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker’s congresses function in action.
If you don’t consider any actually existing country that’s trying to build socialism “up to your standard”, then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren’t doing socialism correctly because they aren’t as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
Can you define what the word means to you exactly?
Kinda? What do you think socialism looks like, if not the PRC? What about the PRC makes it not “genuine worker control,” or more broadly, Marxism-Leninism not “genuine worker control?”
It’s mostly to do with how the workers aren’t in control of anything
🤣🤣🙈🤣
The workers are absolutely in control. If you don’t know what worker’s congresses are, then you should do more studying, and less talking.
They are, though. China is a democratic country, and public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy. Polling shows genuine democracy:
What would worker control have to look like for you to accept it?
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Compared to the robust system of democracy in the US where corporations buy elections and the average person never gets to see a single policy enacted that benefits them? Is that what you’re comparing China to?
No, the US isn’t a democracy either
No lol. I mean, inarguably the us is more free by and large than china (usually, I’m talking normal timeline USA) but neither is a democracy.
Ah yes just ignore the blatant counterexample.
There’s no other timeline genius, this is what the US system had been building up to for decades. This is the intended result, not an accident.
You know, Sparta was the actually most peaceful city in Ancient Greece (usually, I’m talking when they’re not at war).
Edit: Also, there definitely is an algorithm that can determine if any other algorithm will halt or not (usually, I’m talking when you’re not feeding its own source code back into itself).
Telling my wife to only judge me by my sober timeline
Not falling down drunk timeline
You’re just talking out your ass here lmao. This is objectively not true.
China has better infrastructure. Better education. Better affordable healthcare (and they are rapidly about to eclipse the US in our capabilities). 90+% of Chinese people own their own homes. China is one of the safest countries in the world.
What freedom are you talking about? The freedom to die on the streets from preventable illness? The freedom to work 40+hrs a week and live out of your car because you are priced out of housing? The freedom to get shot at the grocery store because someone with a gun is having a mental episode? The freedom to get brutalized by an unaccountable police force?
What freedoms are you talking about?
Oh yes, the 40 hour work week, what a nightmare, china has it much better.
No brutal police either that’s for sure, I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH YOU COMRADE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD BE UNPATRIOTIC.
I guess at this point I need to just conclude you’re a tankie or a bot and stop wasting my time
The US is only more free for capital owners, for the working class China is far more free. The US Empire already is on “normal timeline US Empire.”
Delusional
What was the date of the tianamen square massacre?
The PRC isn’t a western liberal faux-democracy, no, but it is a comprehensive unitary socialist democracy. Policy is usually pushed from the bottom-up, and there are comprehensive levels of provincial, regional, and national democracy. They abolished term limits for the presidential position, but that doesn’t mean “president for life,” Xi can be taken down democratically. It’s unlikely, though, considering he enjoys over 90% support.
As for being “authoritarian,” all states are. The difference with China is that the working class is in control of the state, rather than the capitalist class like in western countries.
I can’t tell if you honestly believe the Chinese working class are in control of china. If so, bravo I guess. No point discussing much else
I do, because it’s true, but I don’t see why that means there isn’t a point in discussing. Public ownership is the principle aspect of society, and capitalists are regularly punished for stepping out of line, while the working class has comprehensive democratic structures in place to pass the policies they want.
That’s hilarious
I don’t see what you mean.
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Not particularly
I disagree: they could’ve used real photos instead of AI generated images.
e.g. I looked at a map and picked the first large city I saw that I’ve never heard of, then looked up some images: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Nanjing%2C+Jiangsu%2C+China&iar=images&t=h_
those aren’t AI
But also: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-08/china-s-50-lane-traffic-jam-is-every-commuter-s-worst-nightmare
Pretty sure that’s a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It’s not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it’s a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.
Here’s one in the glorious freedom country:
(Source)
Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?
But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What’s America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it “woke.”
I’ve been to China plenty, they def aren’t living like this lol. Who believes this shit.
That’s funny because literally China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.
So even if you’re telling the truth the vast majority of the Chinese people disagree with your sentiment.
Their comment wasn’t about government approval.
Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.
The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.
It’s also especially odd if you’re mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?
And to be clear, I don’t even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.
I mention “independent studies” because people are insane and will call anything pro-China you say as just Chinese propaganda.
Nothing I was said was about “independent studies” versus “studies”. I get your point, I’m just saying that wasn’t part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.
Brother I only said what I said because you literally said you thought me saying it was weird.
If you want to look at living standards you can compare cost of living, access to public transportation, cost of food, medicine, you name it. Its all cheaper and rapidly approaching parity with the west, if not already surpassing it.
But again living standards are often highly correlated with approval of your nation and the government running it.
Cool story