Hey all. Getting right to it:
Last November, a majority of my wife’s family voted trump. I immediately made known my disgust and that I had no interest in maintaining relationships with any of them. My wife is equally appalled, but family is important to her and she chooses to compartmentalise it for the sake of their relationships. That’s her call. Typically, her mother comes to stay at our house for an extended period as we live far away, and this year I tolerated her being here for the sake of my wife.
But now, thinking about the next visit and how bad things have gotten, I can’t even stand the thought of having her in my house, let alone being in the same room as her. I really don’t want her here at all, but I will again tolerate her for my wife’s sake. However I think it’s likely that I will make myself pretty scarce during that time.
So the ethics question is - given that I expressed my distaste after the election but still remained cordial, is it ok, ethically speaking, to become more resentful as the consequences of their actions become more apparent? Or, given that what has happened since is pretty much out of everyone’s hands, am I locked in to the level of hostility I showed immediately after?
I guess the distilled version is - a person does X, I express disapproval. Is it ethical to express MORE disapproval as additional unforeseen consequences of X become apparent?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Edit to Clarify - My mother in law is not MAGA and I don’t think she’s enjoying any of it. She thinks we can “just not talk about it” and everything will be fine. However she has become more racist and judgemental (anti-trans etc) in recent years. Hates Joe Biden and Kamal Harris but can’t or won’t say why. Thanks for the responses so far and I’ll try to respond, but I’m about to start work shortly.
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I don’t think this is an ethics question, you’re asking whether resentment builds or fades over time and the answer will be very specific to each person and case. That being said there’s one thing I would like to point out:
a person does X, I express disapproval. Is it ethical to express MORE disapproval as additional unforeseen consequences of X become apparent?
Those weren’t unforseen, that’s the worst part for me, they were clearly foreseen, foretold and warned about, and I could potentially be persuaded to believe people were unaware of that the first time around, but by the second time you are obviously okay with all of it.
I’m being a little generous with that. I agree that they knew he was a piece of shit, but I think a lot of them thought he’d just hurt the people they look down on and not them.
I promise I’m not trying to be dismissive, but do you think you might be autistic? I ask because I am and I struggle with very rigid thinking on how I should react to the consequences of people’s actions that I believe were blatantly foreseeable.
I struggle with this very same issue in my own family. I’ve already gone no contact with my older sister who went full Qanon during COVID, and I barely have a relationship with my Trump-loving grandparents anymore. That relationship is a little laden with religious trauma too, so might not be totally comparable to your situation (I still have to vaguely pretend to be Christian around them even though I’ve been staunchly atheist for twenty years).
Haha, my (likely autistic) wife and (autistic) daughters often tell me I am like it’s just a given!
This is the most damning evidence of all! When you become more aware of how your autism affects your perception, it’s easier to spot in others.
I have really high justice sensitivity, and your description of your perception changing as injustices were borne out from their actions feels a lot like how I would react. I don’t think you’re wrong at all, but I don’t think your wife is either. It’s a very hard situation. I don’t regret cutting or limiting contact with my far right family, but I would have a hard time doing that with my wife’s family for the same reasons you’ve laid out.
I’m definitely not pushing my wife in any direction, just listening and supporting. I have a hard time sympathizing with her attachment to family as mine were abusive assholes and I cut ties with them years ago. I’ll never suggest she do the same, but it wouldn’t bother me at all if she does. I learned a long time ago not to rely on anyone else.
To your edit… it rather sounds like she is in fact MAGA and doesn’t want to admit to the “why”. there’s really not very many people who were both willing to vote for trump a second time and aren’t MAGA, even if they don’t want to admit it.
from an ethics stand point, I’ll remind you of an old german saying. “If 10 men are sitting at a table with a nazi, you have 11 nazis.” You cannot look at trump and honestly conclude he’s an acceptable (never mind good,) president without also agreeing with his fascist and tyrannical bullshit. if she’s genuinely unhappy with the status quo, she can show it by protesting or something. Until then, she’s still a trump supporter and still part of the problem, and there is zero excuse for not knowing what he was about. he said he was going to do everything that he’s doing. (well. maybe not the ballroom or shitting himself, but details.)
but none of us are the ones you need to be having this conversation with. we can’t decide what’s right here… that’s a personal decision you need to make with your wife.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head there boss. No matter how hard I try I can’t accept the ignorance excuse after what all of us have seen. Earlier this year I said to my mother in law “surely you knew at the time that you were doing the wrong thing?” She denied it. The best approach for me is to be around the MIL as little as possible. My wife knows that. It makes her sad, but she understands.
Sorta. Anger and resentment tends to fester continually so ensuring you make your grievances known one way or another can help. If you do want to make it known, but cannot have a healthy dialogue, I personally recommend you write it out, and once you have it dialed in you can send it or hand it to them if you wish.
Personally though, I’d def say that making sure your sweetheart of a wife knows how your feelings have been and continue to move is just as if not more important. Has she mentioned the how and why she managed to tolerate politics given everything?
She feels much the same as I do, and I know she struggles with it a lot. For me, the moment I found out, they all got moved into the category of trump supporters, who I have no time for. But for her, it’s obviously a much bigger deal. I don’t press her on how she should handle it, just support the way she chooses to.
Resentment is usually a feeling which has little to do with ethics.
Actions are more easily analyzed for ethical value.
I guess that you’re considering the action of showing resentment by being absent or cold to them.
From a utilitarian perspective this could serve the purpose of communicating your resentment indirectly which may increase the overall good by preventing this scizsm from infiltrating other parts of your life and others. On the other hand this outcome is not guaranteed.
If you apply value ethics of your actions it really depends on what ideals you hold yourself to.
If you take a completely honest person as your ideal, direct communication is probably more ethical than indirect communication, but indirect communication would still be superior to deceiving them into thinking you agree with them in any way.
Instead, you may idealize an honest pacifist who would value indirect communication higher than direct if direct would also come with conflict.
These are my thoughts, I am by no means an expert in ethics.
you may idealize an honest pacifist who would value indirect communication higher than direct if direct would also come with conflict
This is the approach I’m going with, though I’d classify it more as isolation than indirect communication. Earlier this year I told the mother in law that her proud maga children are no longer welcome in my home and that turned into a bad night for everyone. After that night I decided I’d just keep myself away from her as much as possible.
This is not an ethics question; it’s an emotions question. You are angry, becoming angrier, and hold her in part responsible for the reasons you are angry. What you do about it could become an ethics question if you engage in something extreme, but otherwise - who cares? Think about how actions might affect your relationship with your wife then choose what you want to do.
Huh. 🤔 Big points for flipping my perspective! The only action I’m planning is to spend as little time as possible near my mother in law. My wife is everything to me, her family are nothing.
For your spouses sake, just stfu and dont engage with her regarding politics. Ask your spouse how she wants you to be, since the mother-in-law visiting is performative for you anyways, and you love your spouse more than you are obligated to tolerate your MIL.
I’ve been gently easing the missus into the idea that I’m not going to be hanging out with her mother if she visits again. I can tell she’s conflicted, because on the one hand she’s always been exceptionally close with her, but on the other she’s just as disgusted as I am. I think we’d both be relieved if she just doesn’t visit anymore, which seems like a possibility.
Agree. I scrolled down in comments thinking I’m going to get downvoted for saying what I think. OP needs to chill. OP, is Trump going to be allowed to make you want to drive a wedge between your wife and her mother? Compartmentalise. Your wife’s family is not solely responsible for what Trump has done.
I love podcasts and I will always recommend from there. This is a fantastic episode from a fantastic series… please have a listen:
You Are Not So Smart: 306 - I Never Thought of it That Way - Mónica Guzmán (rebroadcast) - How to have more productive conversations in a highly partisan, polarized, and politicized world
You could probably make the case that I need to chill, but you seem to be making a few incorrect assumptions. I have no intention of interacting with my mother in law any more than absolutely necessary, and the sole reason she may be coming to visit ever again is because I don’t want to drive a wedge between my wife and her mother. I also don’t hold my wife’s family responsible, but by voting for him last November they all became part of the trump crowd who I collectively blame. No more, no less.
I’m definitely going to listen to that podcast. Thanks!
I am of the opinion that not discussing these things is an analog to the Paradox of Tolerance, if not being exactly what the Paradox is about. If we don’t discuss the hatefulness, then the hateful think they are doing fine.
Attacking only causes people to “dig in”. Passive aggressive actions will make you look weak.
Being cordial while also calling out instances of hate as they occur would likely be fine. Be strong and confident, but keep corrections short and to the point (Imagine correctly a 5 year old. Understanding and care, not anger, and keep things in reality.) “That didn’t happen.”, “Why would a criminal say that?”, “Toddlers visiting basketball plays, will reduce the average height, but no one gets shorter or taller.”
That’s how I intend to approach it, during the times when I’m unable to just not be around her.
Besides voting for Trump, is there anything else problematic with her behavior? Because, you know, everyone can make a mistake, and being a family is about doing your best to accept people regardless of their flaws.
You say she’s not MAGA, so is it her forcing you into unwanted political conversations or is it the other way around? Because if it’s you who’s constantly pressuring her on his this issue, it kinda isn’t fair for you to complain about it.
It’s neither, she prefers to not address it at all. I don’t, but I think that’s too close to giving her a pass. I’ve already left the handling of her family to my wife, they all know where I stand. I was more curious about the ethics, from a purely academic standpoint, of me continuing to get angrier at these people over the consequences of a choice they made almost a year ago.
You married your wife because you love her. Her mother-in-law came as a package deal. You can’t have one without the other, because she is the one who raised her. Perhaps she did make the wrong choice a year ago, but you can’t keep holding it against her. You don’t have to agree with her views, you just have to try to accept her regardless, until she softens up on her stance.
Hate is it not driven out by hate. It’s only driven out by Love.
I would make myself scarce and hard to find
That’s the plan! 😜
Resentfulness is a reaction, not a position to take.
You can either say “she’s not welcome” or “we agree to disagree and will not discuss it” and then stick to it. Your choice. But letting (welcoming?) her into your home and then resenting her presence is childish.
Take a stand, one way or another. If you let her come, then deal with it like an adult.
I immediately like and respect you. But there is some nuance. It’s not so much “letting her into my home” as it is “not preventing my wife from seeing her mother.” I’ve been preparing my wife for me to not be hanging out with them like I used to, I’ll be somewhere else or hiding out in my office.
I guess I should have been a bit clearer, but I was genuinely academically curious to know whether my increasing anger is legitimate. The general consensus seems to be it depends on their level of remorse (if any) over their choice. And that makes sense. From what I saw during this year’s visit, the MIL would just like to ignore all of it, but I don’t think that’s ok either. Fucking trump!
However she has become more racist and judgemental (anti-trans etc) in recent years. Hates Joe Biden and Kamal Harris but can’t or won’t say why.
I’m gonna guess that it’s because she watches Fox “News”, and that she can’t say why she hates Biden and Harris. She’s simply heard so much anti-Democrat rhetoric that she’s parroting it.
Ethically, the choice seems easy. While specific events may be unpredictable, the themes of hatred and authoritarianism were obvious to anyone who was genuinely paying attention during the campaign. They knowingly voted for a complete piece of shit. They voted for someone who had tried to overthrow the government when things didn’t go his way. He had already been convicted of bribery and sexual assault before the election even took place. The man is simply unfit for office.
Your level of resentment is by no means “locked in”. You have every right to be angry.
The best thing you can do is communicate. Talk with your wife. Show her your post. Don’t keep your resentment bottled up - that’s not healthy. Hopefully, the two of you can come to a solution that doesn’t harm your marriage. If her family doesn’t like it, too bad. Through their (deliberate?) ignorance, they helped create this problem in the first place.
Excellent reponse, and sounds a lot like one side of my internal debate. On the one hand, since we moved away the only family she’s got left are welded-on republicans. But on the other, she’s been around for the last decade, and not knowing what she was voting for has to include some portion of wilfull ignorance. My wife knows how I feel, because she feels the same. She’s just very conflicted because she’s always been incredibly close with her mother, and severing family ties isn’t something she would ever consider possible. I intend to spend a lot of time in my home office during the next visit, and my wife knows that now.
I have a similar situation and I’ve landed on “my first duty is to my wife.” What that means to you may be different than what it means to me, but that’s where you should start IMO.
To the TL;DR question, absolutely it’s ethical to be more upset as more bad things happen.
I’m like you, my first obligation is always to my wife, that’s the promise I made. But it’s never tested my principles before. I’ve already decided I’m just going to be scarce during those times. There’s been a lot of good advice here, but I was actually more interested in what ethics scholars would say regarding me feeling angrier as time goes on. The targets of my anger haven’t done anything more to deserve additional anger, it’s the consequences of what they did that continue to make me angry…
You succinctly stated exactly my thoughts on this.
Just make sure she’s aware of the consequences of her actions. The amount of detail or tangentiality is up to you. If she’s smart she’ll STFU about it and it can be civil, if not cordial. But feel free to pull out the “I’m glad you like it when they zip tie kids” as needed.
I think I’d prefer to leave that to my wife, who isn’t shy about doing that. I got involved one time earlier this year (alcohol was involved) and I ended up being the asshole in the wife’s eyes. It was grossly unfair in my opinion, but that one time was enough for me to stay out of it permanently. Next visit I think I’m just going to not be around. I have a home office to hide in.
Id just talk about it being disgusting like they didn’t vote for it. ‘Other it’ around them and try not to put it like you’re attacking them. I’d say, for the sake of your family connection by way of your wife, you have to stomach some degree of it. Engendering division only helps the goblins like Miller and Bannon.
I’m talking as someone who’s mother and father voted for Brexit instead of trump, and I refuse to act like it hasn’t been a gigantic fucking mess.
