I hope we snub those unhinged fash. Fuck them.
Try searching Google with “f-35 sales before:2024-11-01”. Countries were lining up to buy them. Boeing had a years long manufacturing backlog.
No matter how you, personally, feel about the F-35 and the US military-industrial complex, Trump wants to both increase exports in general and tout US military strength. Most of NATO running with the F-35 would have been great for both of those. He could have succeeded at it by doing nothing. Complete failure of his own goals.
Lockheed Martin. Boeing makes the F18 (for example)
There is unfortunately a lot of nuance here.
A Gripen does not do the same things that an F35 does.
Europe simply does not have an answer to 5th or 6th generation fighters and I feel like wanting to be supporting of peoples respective countries and acknowledging the US being pretty awful right now is making people unwilling to acknowledge this glaring and incredibly important fault in western arms manufacturing outside of the US.
Humans benefit greatly when people, groups etc, specialize as less resources need to be wasted reinventing the wheel, but when it comes to defence, the current situations shows how flat footed CANZUK+EU* has been left by allowing the US to basically become the single source for some of the most crucial defence items.
Projects like FCAS need to cut the bureaucratic bullshit and speed up development as its increasingly obvious that the US is not a stable partner. CANZUK+EU* despite years of warning about these facts remained unwilling to spend, viewing it as inefficient, and with every individual state that has the capabilities holding recalcitrant attitudes, fighting over who gets to build what.
Basically, what I am saying, is that I would love to have non US weaponry, but if that weaponry can’t compete with US weaponry, there isn’t much of a point.
I mean, quite frankly, for us, Canada, the most important thing we could possibly do this decade, is to internally create our own ultimate strategic deterrents. Anything short of that would leave us completely defenceless to our greatest military threat, and largest neighbour. There is literally no chance we win any conventional war, so in a way, not even this fighter deal matters.
I agree you on all points, but i want to add that weapon systems where manufactorer has a back door open and they can do things like remotelly lock the missile systems or other weapons, does not really sound appealing.
A lot of the nuance is also one of threat assessment, and risk tolerance.
We can prepare for a situation where we’re attacked by the US, but given all probabilities is that worth it compared to preparing for a situation where we get attacked by China or Russia, or is that even worth considering vs preparing for a situation where we can ramp up industrial military production as fast as possible and become a resource rich manufacturing powerhouse?
There’s no way of knowing which path the world will go down, and preparing for everything simply isn’t possible, so every decision is going to be a matter of what risks to take for what potential benefits.
We can prepare for a situation where we’re attacked by the US, but given all probabilities is that worth it compared to preparing for a situation where we get attacked by China or Russia
Very much so. Russia is not that big a threat as they are an easy sell to alliances. China and the US would steamroll us regardless, hence, given that we have no one resembling near peers, ultimate strategic deterrents are literally the only things that can defend us should the worst come.
vs preparing for a situation where we can ramp up industrial military production as fast as possible and become a resource rich manufacturing powerhouse?
This is not happening when we don’t even have our own jets and every country with fancy jets (etc) wants to build them in house.
There’s no way of knowing which path the world will go down, and preparing for everything simply isn’t possible, so every decision is going to be a matter of what risks to take for what potential benefits.
A strategic deterrent program is the least expensive and most all encompassing. We generally stay out of the business of other countries so the bipolar fascist next door is the biggest threat to physical safety/sovereignty. We’re also uniquely well equipped to start one. We need to have a Can du attitude.
I think we’d do not badly in a conventional war when you factor in the fact that the Americans would be fighting on two fronts - within Canada against Canadians, and within America against the substantial chunk of Americans who would be trying to bring down the regime that was causing something as insane as an invasion of Canada to be undertaken. Plus there’d be international support at play. It would be a huge mess. Canada would just need to make the mess as big and as long as possible.
That said, preventing America from invading in the first place would be ideal, so the more preemptive preparation to strengthen Canada’s position and weaken America’s the better. Shifting our military supply lines to European sources is a step in that direction for many reasons. I do think a nuclear deterrent would be ideal, but that’s a couple of steps of escalation further down the line I think.
within Canada against Canadians, and within America against the substantial chunk of Americans who would be trying to bring down the regime that was causing something as insane as an invasion of Canada to be undertaken.
Given the current trajectory, I have little faith that they would mount an effective internal resistance.
I think we’d do not badly in a conventional war when you factor in
No matter what, conventional war is horrific and wed be losing our families, homes, friends, and more. Effective strategic deterrents make it such that we would never reach that stage and as such, is far more economical and moral.
I do think a nuclear deterrent would be ideal, but that’s a couple of steps of escalation further down the line I think.
You cant make nukes loudly in such a situation, but ass we’ve seen, you definitely cant make them under the gun. The only time is before the circumstances that you feel would necessitate them when we are still not viewed as enemies.
Disarming yourself as to avoiding presenting as a threat clearly does not work.
No matter what, conventional war is horrific and wed be losing our families, homes, friends, and more.
Which is why I said “preventing America from invading in the first place would be ideal”
You cant make nukes loudly in such a situation, but ass we’ve seen, you definitely cant make them under the gun.
Right, it would be done before the US invades, to prevent them from invading. Nuclear weapons are deterrence, you don’t want to actually use them.
Right, it would be done before the US invades, to prevent them from invading. Nuclear weapons are deterrence, you don’t want to actually use them.
I fear my point is being missed.
My point was in response mainly to this last sentence:
I do think a nuclear deterrent would be ideal, but that’s a couple of steps of escalation further down the line I think.
My point is that it cant be further down, because if you are down that far, its too late. We’ve seen this was most countries that became under the gun when they would benefit dearly from having nuclear weapons of their own.
Notably, if Ukraine did so before they would have been fine, but during, they have no chance.
Iran similarly has a difficult time.
Its not about the nation, its about the fact that if you are at a point where you feel the heat is on, its too late to build nukes. Now is the time to build them.
Basically, what I am saying, is that I would love to have non US weaponry, but if that weaponry can’t compete with US weaponry, there isn’t much of a point.
the best fighter jet is still useless if it can just be disabled, and/or if the other support service can just be stopped
I don’t disagree at all, hence my conclusion that if neither is effective we must do what is:
the most important thing we could possibly do this decade, is to internally create our own ultimate strategic deterrents
oh okay sry i misunderstood then i think ^^
And the Gripen will be built here in Canada!!!
To be fair, we’ve manufactured a lot of parts for other country’s F35s so far. That’s quite standard for defense contracts. Still, if Saab commits to bringing more guaranteed manufacturing jobs than the F35 program, it could be worth it. If this gives us a leg up in F35 manufacturing bids, that could also be worth it. Feels like a strong play regardless of outcome.
Yeah, I saw that. I’m not sure how that 10k number relates to the number created by F35-related manufacturing so far.
We might not lose any jobs with dropping the F35. Canada is just allowed to bid on contracts to build parts for all the F35 production, not just our own.
Yeah, we might not. We could still bid on F35 production runs. I think the specifics will be quite important to determining what’s a good outcome.
Regardless, I like that we’re courting other options even if it just results in leverage elsewhere.
Wasn’t a major problem with the F35 that they can’t fly in the Canadian north? Shouldn’t we have at least some of our fleet that can be used throughout Canadian territory in our defense?
I think they work fine as long as the hydraulic fluid is actually hydraulic fluid, and not water.
Don’t leave your drums outside in the rain.
I’ve been commenting on a bunch of threads the best way to deal with a bully is to tell them to fuck off and go play with everyone else in the playground. Glad we’re taking the first few steps in the right direction.
That’s cute and all but annexing Canada is literally in their agenda.
the best way to deal with a bully is to tell them to fuck off
Works best when the bully isn’t stupid rich and surrounded by psychopath security guards.
A big reason why oil-rich oligarchies buy American military hardware is to avoid getting the heavy end of the “regime change” stick bounced off their heads.
Yes. We don’t want the fascist us F35’s keep them and stick em where the sun don’t shine.
Now that the US is sending them to Saudi, how secure will they be from investigation by foreign adversaries?
Plus, the entire supply chain system of relying on the US for software and hardware updates, having to physically send the planes to the US for maintenance, all while the US continues to talk about annexing us is completely fucking bonkers.
Even without the annexation threats the setup would be stupid.
I know it’s a fancy and advanced plane, but knowing how the US military industrial complex works I’m pretty sure you’re paying a high multiplier for no reason too.
Super advanced, so advanced that Iran shot what 3 down?
There have been no confirmed downings of F-35’s.
While it’s fully possible that the US is lying about that, it’s equally possible that the claims from Iran are also lies, because half of military action is information and misinformation. I wouldn’t lean on foreign propaganda any more than I would domestic propaganda.
If you want a laugh, go look up the photos Iran doctored up for this bit of propaganda. I remember one had an F35 with cockpit the size of a school bus on it. Another had the tail section on backwards. Probably AI slop, but fake photos to be sure.
There have been no confirmed downings of F-35’s.
Several “oops this plane just fell off the flight deck, oh well, shit happens” articles in recent memory. A great way to explain why the Navy is suddenly down a vehicle without having to explain to anyone in the general public what happened.
I wouldn’t lean on foreign propaganda any more than I would domestic propaganda.
Americans are putting these jets into service and a surprising number of them are failing.
Whether Iran/Yemen have successfully struck any of them or the Navy can’t get them on and off the flight deck reliably is almost a moot point. A downed plane is a downed plane.
Oh so this is the part where we provide no sources to our claim. Then claim the sources are unreliable!
Sure, that all may be the case, but counterpoint: ospreys.
Is this a contest to crash the most aircraft?
Because my man, the GOAT, John “New Plane” McCain would like to have a word.
I fucking hope so
Please do
List of accidents and incidents involving the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II
At the price of $100M/jet you want to miss out on all this?
hey now be fair
List of accidents and incidents involving the JAS 39 Gripen
although given the JAS has a 23-year head start, i gotta say the F-35 has made a fantastic grab for the lead.
To be fair most Gripen crashes happened in the early days, as a result of purposefully pushing the plane and pilot to their limits. Flying low enough to scrape treetops, sudden high-G manouvers… they train like they’re in an actual war.
If we MUST get the jets from the US perhaps they’d consider a trade of some fighter jets for deez nutz
The Gripen is certainly not as advanced as F-35 but its operating costs per flight hour are only 1/5th of the F-35 which is definitely a big consideration when you don’t have a US-sized defense budget.
What role does the jet have to fulfill? Fight off enemy planes in an invasion? If it’s the US that invades you wouldn’t want US tech, but it doesn’t really matter, the US would win. Russia invading? At this point they’re down to kites and helium balloons, right?
If it’s to fulfill a role within NATO, a Gripen is probably just as good as an F-35, because any enemy of NATO’s will almost certainly be many generations behind. China wouldn’t be, but neither Canada directly nor NATO is likely to get into a direct fighting war with China. Only maybe if Canada wanted to help defend Taiwan against Chinese aggression could that possibly happen. But, because Taiwan’s a small island, Canada’s Navy would probably be the main force involved.
In a few decades, things might already have changed. Missiles and drones might have made fighter jets essentially obsolete. So, it doesn’t make too much sense to buy something that’s massively expensive just because it’s the most up-to-date thing right now.
Likely there will be no such thing as a 6th gen fighter jet. The pilot will be replaced by AI, so the next gen will have completely different requirements.
Canada should never trust any US military contractor ever again
Why are they even still getting jets? i feel like it would make much more sense to get drones, or rather to build drone fabrics
Oh. You’re a military commander with decades of experience, education and knowledge on the subject? Jesus fucking Christ.
its a question and a “i feel like”
maybe start learning to read
Why is Ukraine still using jets?
Drones require a radio signal to work. Radio signals can be jammed. You can get around this by having the drone on a wire, but obviously the range of the drone will be limited by the length of the wire.
An aircraft with a human pilot can still do it’s mission even if radio signals are being jammed.
Also I can imagine someday they might combine the technologies. Human piloted jet carries drones close enough that it can hit the target while being connected to the jet by a wire so it can be controlled by the human pilot in the jet in an area where signals are being jammed. Of course the enemy will want to counter that… by sending a human piloted jet to take out your human piloted jet.
You could of course build more sophisticated drones that can operate autonomously. But remember they they may not be able to connect to a server farm to because of jamming. So you’d have to put a lot more stuff on the drone itself and before long it’s no longer a cheap $400 drone, it’s price tag goes up until you’re basically spending almost as much per drone as we do on missiles.
Military tech is all about inventing new thing, invent thing to counter that, invent thing to counter the counter to your new tech. In wartime procurement you just need the thing that works right now. With peacetime procurement you want to get things that keep your options open and not be too dependent on a tech that might be countered in a few years. So you get both jets and drones because maybe the jets will be obsolete, but it’s just as likely drones will be obsolete if the time comes to use them.
At the moment, no, probably not, and it’s not either / or. Drones were a surprise in Ukraine, but their effectiveness has somewhat diminished as new counter measures like jamming, and just basic stuff like netting, are starting to blunt their usefulness.
Meanwhile they’re still getting hammered by glide bombs, modified heavy bombs that can use GPS to find their targets and are launched by traditional aircraft, far away from the front line, and some of their most effective weapons have been the Storm Shadow / Scalp cruise missiles, which are also launched from traditional fighter jets (which effectively act as a first stage).
And again, it’s not one of the other. In an actual war, either aggressive or defensive, you’re going to want a mixture of capabilities… You can’t always zerg rush.
Also… who’s gonna be attacking Canada with drones?
alright thank you
Because jets are faster and have a greater effective range? Also Canada is the 2nd largest continent?
Jets offer an extremely different range of capabilities from drones. They broadly aren’t interchangable. Some highly advanced, expensive, and large drones have pushed the boundaries on this, but currently fighter jets are a largely unique asset.
