It should be no surprise that these people
want to take your power away from you and silence you. Don’t fall for it. They need you to think you’re powerless because we have the power to stop them. Organize! Just like they can organize 80+ busses for an insurrection to topple democracy, we can do the same to protect democracy. We have to!
People defending the debate with nazis must think life is an episode of a Sitcom, where someone says a speech and everyone else shuts the fuck up and agrees the point.
Nazis claim for the freedom of speech they deny to others. Nazis don’t win the debate, they poison it.
Fascism is not meant to be argued, it needs to be destroyed.
While agreeing to you, I also came to the conclusion that fascism is not meant to be destroyed, but to fought ethernally, and also internally. The sum of it is the laziness of our mind, the ultimate reduction of us to easy final solutions, fear, loneliness and blind rage. Keeping oneself and your social circle out of that is a way of continuous work and improvement. And it shows with how mellowed many are to straight up nazi salutes just around time most veterans of WW2 died. Media repeatedly told us it is dead, but hydra shows it’s fugly head up from everyone’s toilet.
Yes the great debator Charlie Kirk.
“Women who have abortions should be killed because they have sinned” “The civil rights act of 1964 was DEI” “Transgender people are subhuman and should have no rights” “Jews are replacing white people with black people”
None of what he said were arguments. They are just statements of bigotry meant to affirm and spread bigotry.
The civil rights act of 1964 was DEI. It was a massive step towards achieving diversity, equity, and inclusion to help non-whites to have the same shit that whites have. It’s just that Charlie Kirk thought that DEI was inherently a bad thing.
Just like with “woke”. It’s not bad to be woke. The opposite is to be asleep. They are the same people who would unironically tell everybody “wake up, sheeple.” They just don’t like what people are waking up to specifically, and that’s persecution of minorities and capitalist brainwashing. They would prefer that we all be ignorant of our systemic exploitation and any course of action available to us to alter our lot in life.
Sadly we’re in the level of “ignorant groupthink” where people were wearing diapers to celebrate their godking’s incontinence. They don’t care what words mean. They don’t care if they’re troglodytes dragging us backwards. As long as they got a beer in their hand and a confederate flag on their truck, they’re gonna be happy as pigs in shit.
the MAGA right is mostly mentally handicapped.
They don’t care about what words mean. They will say anything, anything, to try to secure power. They are bad people. They are bad people.
Something, something, snowflakes?
Something, something, cancel culture?
Something, something, fuck your feelings?This is who we’re talking about, right?
Everything they say is bullshit and in bad faith. They have no reasonable argument whatsoever.
The right-wing playbook in action. It’s really interesting (and evil) how their rhetoric evolved to take advantage of the weaknesses of modern liberalism. The reason we shouldn’t accept their speech into just any space is because, pardon my French: it isn’t on the fucking level. They’re not trying to win a rational debate. They’re just trying to win, through whatever means necessary including exaggerating, lying, and bullshitting.
I am probably preaching to the choir here but if any of y’all haven’t gone through it, the whole right-wing playbook series on Youtube is pretty much mandatory viewing at this point and definitely made me abandon my ‘we should debate them in the marketplace of ideas’ stance.
i still remember the 2016 era fucking insufferable “lets be tolerant” arguments like “we should respect their opinions even if we don’t agree” and “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”
yea. how did the “let’s be kind to nazis” approach work out? american citizens are being rounded up and deported just because they’re brown, and we STILL have high profile prominent people saying “let’s have a discussion” instead of at the very least pointing out that kirk himself said a few deaths are worth 2a, so he was LITERALLY asking for it. literally as in literally, not the bullshit victim-blaming “she was asking for it” comment on rape from the collective maga face anus
We’ve (collectively) voted Nazis into being in charge…
If you think they’re going to let us vote them out again, I don’t know what to tell you. They for sure won’t. There’s a decent chance Trump cheated his way into office this time as it is.
The second amendment was our final check and/or balance. It seems insane to oppose it in the face of fascism.
Why would you want to be disarmed when Nazis are running the country, AND HOW IS THAT BETTER OR DIFFERENT THAN THE 2016 TOLERANCE YOU’RE REFERRING TO???
No, I don’t want violence or murder or anything else. At some point though we may want Nazis even less.
Why would you want to be disarmed when Nazis are running the country, AND HOW IS THAT BETTER OR DIFFERENT THAN THE 2016 TOLERANCE YOU’RE REFERRING TO???
i’m not understanding how you got “i want to be disarmed” from anything i said, much less how that would be better than being kind to nazis. there are many countries with guns but without the through the roof gun deaths, because they have gun laws that make sense, for example if you have a history of mental health problems and violence, then you can’t have a gun. nazis are opposed to things like that and literally ANY laws that limit access to guns–for themselves. i’m not opposed to 2a, i’m opposed to maga’s approach to it
and if you think they’re not at this moment planning and working on disarming you (and me) for not being one of them, then i don’t know what to tell you. they’ll say X group of people aren’t allowed to have guns. they’ll put it to one of those “votes” you mentioned. it’ll “pass.” they’ll knock on your door and say “our records show you bought a gun. hand it over or you’re going to jail.” if they don’t find some reason to haul you off anyway. rinse and repeat
edit: the far right collective nazi propaganda machine has spent decades of rhetoric trying to equate “gun control laws” with “they’re coming to take all your guns.” in other words any attempt whatsoever to regulate or control guns is met with bullshit like “slippery slope” and “shall not be infringed” all in order to remove from the public conscious mind the possibility that maybe we can have guns AND gun control. of course maga falls for this false dichotomy hook line and sinker. so don’t fall for it and assume that any criticism of how 2a exists in this country equates to “i want to be disarmed”
When the right uses terms like “liberty”, or “freedom” or “free speech”, everyone should realize that they mean those terms in very different ways than normal Americans do.
What is normal in this context? More than half the electorate supports the right. That’s plenty enough to be “normal” from the outside looking in.
Does the Pareto principal work for morals?
Like 80% you go with the flow, 20% “call me Neville because even if I’m the last normal person on earth I’ll never stop looking for the cure.”
Imagine being proud of your own hypocrisy
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
What else have they got to be proud of? Rape? Pedophiles? Treason? Insurrection? Grooming? Indoctrination?
There is a word for it, but these people would never think of applying it to their peers because they themselves are the epitome of its meaning, which is in turn evidenced by their inability to recognize this fact: ignorance.
It’s proud ignorance. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being ignorant of something, as long as you don’t remain ignorant after learning about the thing and as long as you don’t take pride in it.
Yes, for the more informed among them, you could call it that, or:
“Strategic ignorance (also called deliberate ignorance or wilful blindness) is the intentional avoidance of information because possessing it would impose costs, obligations, or constraints that reduce expected utility.”
Somewhat sloppyly adapted from Sweeny et al. (2010) and Sims (2003).
The cons sneer right in the face of any notion that they be held to any standard.
They laugh that everyone to the left of Newt Gingrich is held to standards - they view that gate-keeping as weakness, because THEY will feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about being flaming hypocrites and constantly engaging in logical fallacies, bad faith, etc…
Obviously, they will be right there, along with all the Elevated Centrist and liberal scolds, whenever a Democrat is found to not be as pure as the driven snow, or when a Democrat says something that has been debunked, etc. They will not apply that standard to Republicans.
You have defined conservatism.
Like schadenfreude, there is probably a German compound word for aggressive ignorant hypocrisy
I don’t care who killed him.
They don’t give a shit when we get shot in the street.
“i nEvER hAtEd aNyOnE, cHalriE oNLy StOod fOR rEliGiOuS fReEdOm”
“All Charlie wanted to do was debate people, but they couldn’t allow that”
Cancel Culture for thee, but not for me. Same old story with these hypocritical morons.
They are the parents of cancel culture after all and huge hypocrites so it’s not surprising.
People need to stop getting hung up on the right being hypocritical. Their electorate doesn’t care and neither do they. Every argument is in bad faith and it works so why would they stop?
Their electorate doesn’t care but there’s that small percentage of actual independent voters who might and regardless you need to keep pointing it out because the public in general has the memory and critical thinking skills of a RFK Jr.
Sure but it’s just preaching to the choir. People’s short attention span, lack of critical thinking, and siloed media consumption means they are unlikely to see the call out.
They will see the 10 second sound bites of someone “owning the libs” or whatever and then keep scrolling.
Here on lemmy? Yeah, definitely. In real life where I used to drink with a bunch of old retired coots, this was a weekly thing. I got a handful of them to change a bit over many, many beers.
Isnt if obvious? Today’s Conservatives are all about freedom of speech, as long as the speech directly reflects their values. Their speech is more free than others’…
“All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others”
- George Orwell, Animal Farm
To give him his due, he was willing to engage people. He was also willing to (or at least appeared willing to) actually change his position every once in a while, instead of just going along with whatever the latest narrative shift was, which is a rarity in talking head land.
That said, the vast majority of his arguments that I have heard were in bad faith, and he seemed to employ any means at his disposal to “win” instead of actually paying counter arguments due consideration.
Most of the positions he held were just terrible, as well, so that kind of waters down any willingness to “change his mind” because it does seem like he preferred to change from one shitty position to another shitty position, most of the time.
Anyway, I think it’s bullshit to shoot someone because you disagree with them.
Do you have an example of a time a counterpoint was offered that changed his mind?
A bunch of people in the Trump admin changed their mind on even the existence of the Epstein files.
