You understand so little you would likely have to unlearn effectively everything you “know” to even approach 0 understanding.
I’m also finding it a little bit suspicious that Chinese people–whom are propping up the USSR–are replying to me.
Fuck you first of all you massively racist fucking loser. You don’t get to be suspicious whitey.
For the record, China is still capitalist,
Maybe, if you have no fucking idea what capitalism, socialism or communism actually mean.
Hell, are Chinese people even legally allowed to use Lemmy?
Not understanding the firewall award.
Actual Gulag survivors have told stories about how horrific it was to be in those camps, too.
Gulag archipelago reader award. (A book so terribly it’s been disavowed by everyone involved bar the main author)
Chinese cruelty toward the Uyghurs?
Depends do you mean the real issues that occured during the crackdown on ETIM or the Zenz/US state department fantasy.
Or the children working in factories and producing carcinogenic products for Shein for next to no money?
Views stuck decades in the past award.
What about the Tianamen square massacre?
Categorically not a massacre but a clash between violent rioters and the military acting as riot police at the time, also funnily enough none of the violence was actually in the square.
greenwash
I don’t think you know what this word means
The West is pretty evil, but let’s not greenwash the USSR or China.
“My country is evil and constantly lies but I also believe everything they say about their ideological enemies”
I do think China has done some good, but it also doesn’t cancel out the sketchiness. I do agree that we could learn from China, but there’s also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. There’s also a good reason why people are urging people to stop buying from fast fashion websites, which are mostly Chinese.
Please do explain to me how selling carcinogenic products worldwide (from sketchy AF factories) isn’t capitalist. Explain it like I’m 5 years old, I do insist. With the way the world is going, I’m even going to use GrapheneOS for extra privacy.
Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia, it isn’t racist to be suspicious. I’d be just as suspicious of a person from the USA defending Israel, so it’s not like I’m not like I’m going after race. Not to mention, at least 250 people died during the Tianamen square incident. Some even estimate that thousands died, but it was at least 250 people.
I quite literally do not celebrate Canada day because it’s built on top of the blood of colonialism. I am also largely not a fan of Christians and have very little patience for a lot of them.
Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China’s economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist.
Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector.
Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75.
I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own.
To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later.
Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society.
This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears.
At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic.
The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade).
The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power.
Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation.
China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society.
In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people’s organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power.
When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China.
To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system.
It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade.
For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality.
But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend:
Engels: The Principles of Communism
Marx and Engels: The Communist Manifesto
Engels: Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Marx: Wage Labour and Capital
Marx: Value, Price and Profit
Marx: Critique of the Gotha Programme
Lenin: The State and Revolution
Lenin: The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky
Lenin: Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder
Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism
Stalin: Foundations of Leninism
Stalin: Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR
Mao Zedong: On Practice
Mao Zedong: On Contradiction
Mao Zedong: On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People
Mao Zedong: On New Democracy
Mao Zedong: Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan
Mao Zedong: On Protracted War
Deng Xiaoping: Build Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
Deng Xiaoping: We Must Follow Our Own Road in Economic Development
Xi Jinping: Uphold and Develop Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
Xi Jinping: The Governance of China
Roland Boer: Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
Rong Zhaozi: Productivity, Public Capital, and Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
Carlos Martinez: The East Is Still Red: Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century
Roderic Day: China Has Billionaires
Michael Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds
Michael Parenti: Inventing Reality
Walter Rodney: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa
Kwame Nkrumah: Neo-Colonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism
Vijay Prashad: Washington Bullets
J. Sakai: Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat
I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that’s the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be.
Excellent write-up I’d like to point to one thing though
China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party.
This doesn’t mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is “The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them”. Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn’t aren’t included in textbooks. And since you’re speaking positively of such a party you must be “shilling” for them. I know adding the “how” of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it’s just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase.
Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they’d actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn’t then it was fine as is anyway.
Plus, China has billionaires. Any truly non-capitalistic country wouldn’t have ~~ billionaires~~ oligarchs. Nor would they have factory workers working for 75 hours per week.
I would define a transition from capitalism to socialism as
Merchants & lawyers out of power
and engineers (laborers) & academics into power,
which is what China has.
The US isn’t failing true capitalism while still secretly being feudalistic,
just because land lords and TV evangelists exist,
while George Bush Jr, eldest son of George Bush Senior, became leader of the land in 2000.
China just had a capitalistic phase due to Deng’s reforms,
just like the US had a socialist phase due to Roosevelt’s reforms.
Both of those did not last, because ultimately those in power are
socialist for China (engineers & academics)
and capitalist for the US (merchants & lawyers).
The capitalist phase is already waning under Xi,
just like the socialist phase did under Nixon did for the US.
Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia, it isn’t racist to be suspicious.
Lol. Do you really use such language with your own nation?
If not, you are selective and that begs the question as to why
and what pattern would emerge out of what you are selective to.
I highly doubt you ever said something along the lines of
“The EU/UK is in good cahoots with the US”,
despite the fact that EU NATO chief Rutte openly called Trump “daddy”.
I don’t see Putin doing that with Xi. Putin is not even running
a socialist country.
And Putin talks about a multipolar world in which Russia is one of those poles.
To be honest, I am growing quite tired of the USA. I do not like the USA or what it stands for; Donald Trump is merely proof of what I’ve been saying about the country all along. I do think that countries that are buddy-buddy with the USA are frustrating as hell. As a Canadian, I’ve been done with their BS for so long that it’s not even funny.
I actually criticise the country so much that I can genuinely say I’m a certified hater. Plus, I also believe that patriotism for being Canadian or American is celebration of colonialism; we should deconstruct these countries instead of maintaining status quo. People got genocided just so cranky old white people can cry about immigrants from India and eat hotdogs and burgers on Canada day.
the easiest first step in ensuring that the usa and it’s ilk change their tune is to stop repeating the propaganda the usa already admitted to manufacturing thanks to the freedom of information act.
i’m referring to stuff like this:
I do think China has done some good, but it also doesn’t cancel out the sketchiness. I do agree that we could learn from China, but there’s also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries.
Not to mention, at least 250 people died during the Tianamen square incident. Some even estimate that thousands died, but it was at least 250 people.
Plus, China has billionaires. Any truly non-capitalistic country wouldn’t have billionaires. Nor would they have factory workers working for 75 hours per week.
if you’re to repeat their propaganda, you should atleast be getting paid for it.
You understand so little you would likely have to unlearn effectively everything you “know” to even approach 0 understanding.
Fuck you first of all you massively racist fucking loser. You don’t get to be suspicious whitey.
Maybe, if you have no fucking idea what capitalism, socialism or communism actually mean.
Not understanding the firewall award.
Gulag archipelago reader award. (A book so terribly it’s been disavowed by everyone involved bar the main author)
Depends do you mean the real issues that occured during the crackdown on ETIM or the Zenz/US state department fantasy.
Views stuck decades in the past award.
Categorically not a massacre but a clash between violent rioters and the military acting as riot police at the time, also funnily enough none of the violence was actually in the square.
I don’t think you know what this word means
“My country is evil and constantly lies but I also believe everything they say about their ideological enemies”
I do think China has done some good, but it also doesn’t cancel out the sketchiness. I do agree that we could learn from China, but there’s also a damn good reason why their phones are banned in multiple countries. There’s also a good reason why people are urging people to stop buying from fast fashion websites, which are mostly Chinese.
Please do explain to me how selling carcinogenic products worldwide (from sketchy AF factories) isn’t capitalist. Explain it like I’m 5 years old, I do insist. With the way the world is going, I’m even going to use GrapheneOS for extra privacy.
Considering that China is known for its heavy censorship and is in good cahoots with Russia, it isn’t racist to be suspicious. I’d be just as suspicious of a person from the USA defending Israel, so it’s not like I’m not like I’m going after race. Not to mention, at least 250 people died during the Tianamen square incident. Some even estimate that thousands died, but it was at least 250 people.
I quite literally do not celebrate Canada day because it’s built on top of the blood of colonialism. I am also largely not a fan of Christians and have very little patience for a lot of them.
Plus, China has billionaires. Any truly non-capitalistic country wouldn’t have billionaires. Nor would they have factory workers working for 75 hours per week.
I’m not referring to any books when talking about the Gulag survivors, for the record.
Selling products is not capitalism by itself. Capitalism is a system where private ownership is the principal aspect, and capitalists control the state. Socialism, on the other hand, is a system where public ownership is principal, and the working classes control the state. The backbone and commanding heights of China’s economy are publicly owned, and the working classes control the state, ergo it is socialist.
Billionaires exist because private property exists, and private property exists because it speeds up development and integrates China with the global economy. This is a tradeoff used to build up the productive forces as quickly as possible, so that the social surplus can be redirected to developing underdeveloped regions, and because developed industry is easier to publicly own and plan. As these private firms grow, they are more tightly controlled and/or folded into the public sector.
Average working hours in China are 46 hours per week, not 75.
I wrote a more direct reply to this, but I have come to realise that in this situation it would most likely be unproductive. You appear to be a very new leftist of some description: you seem to like the idea of socialism or communism, but you do not yet seem to have a firm grasp of what they actually entail. So instead of arguing point by point, I am going to explain what socialism is, why China has been socialist since 1949, and then add some book and article recommendations so you can begin studying the question more seriously on your own.
To start, we have to define a term that is commonly used but rarely properly understood: the state. Many people use “the state” and “the government” interchangeably, but this is not accurate. The state is specifically the organised force by which class antagonisms are mediated through the rule of one class over others. The government, on the other hand, broadly refers to the administration, coordination, planning, record-keeping, infrastructure management, public decision-making, and the organisation of social production required by advanced societies. This distinction will be important later.
Next, it is important to define socialism. Socialism is the transitionary period between capitalism and communism. It still contains many contradictions inherited from capitalism: classes, class struggle, uneven development, commodity production, wages, bureaucracy, ideological struggle, and often limited market mechanisms. Socialism is not “when everything is already communist.” It is the period in which the proletariat holds political power and uses that power to transform society, develop the productive forces, suppress reaction, and gradually overcome the material basis of class society.
This stands in contrast to communism, where class society has been abolished as a meaningful social reality. Communism is classless because there are no longer opposed classes standing in antagonistic relation to one another (as only a single class, the proletariat, remain after the other classes have been proletarianised during the socialist period). It is stateless because, once class antagonisms have disappeared, the state as an instrument of class rule no longer has a function and withers away. This of course does not mean that organisation, administration, planning, or collective decision-making (the government) disappear. It means that the coercive state as an instrument of class domination disappears.
At this point you might ask: if contradictions remain under socialism, how is it different from capitalism? That is a reasonable question. The answer rests on one primary and one secondary characteristic.
The primary question is: which class commands the state? Under socialism, the proletariat commands the state through the people’s democratic dictatorship, also called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Under capitalism, the bourgeoisie commands the state, which communists refer to as the dictatorship of capital (even if they have a liberal democratic cascade).
The secondary question is: which mode of ownership holds primacy, public ownership or private ownership? This is secondary because public ownership under the dictatorship of capital functions as state capitalism, while public ownership under the dictatorship of the proletariat is part of socialist construction. Ownership forms matter, but they cannot be separated from the class character of political power.
Now, with this groundwork laid, we can finally look properly at the Chinese situation.
China has been socialist since October 1, 1949, because the old landlord-bureaucrat-comprador state was destroyed and replaced by a people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class through the Communist Party. The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members as of the end of 2024 (slightly over 1/14 people). The commanding heights of the economy were brought under public ownership and workers state direction. The new state was built to suppress reaction, defend sovereignty, develop the productive forces, and transform society.
In China, the bourgeoisie still exists, but it does not rule as a class. Capitalists can own firms in non-commanding sectors, make profits, and accumulate wealth within limits, because developing the productive forces still serves necessary social goals at China’s current stage of development. But they do not command the state, the army, the land system, the central banking system, or the strategic direction of the economy. They do not stand above the people or above the people’s organised political instrument, the Communist Party, as a sovereign power.
When capital conflicts with the long-term interests of socialist construction, it is disciplined, subordinated, investigated, broken up, fined, or otherwise brought to heel. Jack Ma and Ant Group is a useful example: its $37 billion IPO was suspended in 2020 and Jack Ma was made step away from public life as he attempted to put his profit before the benefits of the people by pushing for loosening banking regulations so he could provide micro loans. Foreign capitalists spent years crying about this as it showed the truth capital holds no power in China.
To put it briefly: China is socialist because the proletarian-led state holds political power, commands the strategic economy, subordinates capital to national and social development, suppresses reactionary threats, and continues the long transition out of capitalism under conditions of imperialist encirclement, uneven development, and a still-existing world capitalist system.
It would also be remiss not to mention that much of what you “know” about China has been manufactured through a mix of exaggeration, selective framing, omission, and outright lies. For example, you have likely heard about “996” as if it represents Chinese labour law or the normal working life of the whole country. In reality, 996 was an issue in ~40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom and was quickly ruled illegal which it now has been for half a decade.
For a proper explanation on how this kind of ideological manufacture happens, I would recommend reading Michael Parenti’s Inventing Reality.
Further reading recommendations:
I have to a plug @[email protected] and their beginner reading list
But for my recommendations more directly related to the topic at hand I would recommend:
I understand having such a long list dumped on you is likely off-putting however that’s the unfortunate truth of being a real socialist/communist, constant reading, education and investigation is a must. If you have any specific questions on any of them I can try help you if need be.
Excellent write-up I’d like to point to one thing though
This doesn’t mean anything to a westerner. What westerners hear is “The communist party officials presume/claim to speak in the interest of the working class with no direct input from them”. Since this is what almost every party in the west has done since parliaments became a thing. The ones that didn’t aren’t included in textbooks. And since you’re speaking positively of such a party you must be “shilling” for them. I know adding the “how” of how workers shape and influence the state would make your comment even longer, but as it is to most it’s just an unbelievable, meaningless phrase.
Yeah I 100% agree but also felt that it was long enough that it was 50/50 they’d actually read past the first few lines anyway so I could clarify in any follow-ups if they did and if they didn’t then it was fine as is anyway.
deleted by creator
Thanks for the shoutout, and excellent comment as always!
I would define a transition from capitalism to socialism as
Merchants & lawyers out of power
and engineers (laborers) & academics into power,
which is what China has.
The US isn’t failing true capitalism while still secretly being feudalistic,
just because land lords and TV evangelists exist,
while George Bush Jr, eldest son of George Bush Senior, became leader of the land in 2000.
China just had a capitalistic phase due to Deng’s reforms,
just like the US had a socialist phase due to Roosevelt’s reforms.
Both of those did not last, because ultimately those in power are
socialist for China (engineers & academics)
and capitalist for the US (merchants & lawyers).
The capitalist phase is already waning under Xi,
just like the socialist phase did under Nixon did for the US.
Lol. Do you really use such language with your own nation?
If not, you are selective and that begs the question as to why
and what pattern would emerge out of what you are selective to.
I highly doubt you ever said something along the lines of
“The EU/UK is in good cahoots with the US”,
despite the fact that EU NATO chief Rutte openly called Trump “daddy”.
I don’t see Putin doing that with Xi. Putin is not even running
a socialist country.
And Putin talks about a multipolar world in which Russia is one of those poles.
To be honest, I am growing quite tired of the USA. I do not like the USA or what it stands for; Donald Trump is merely proof of what I’ve been saying about the country all along. I do think that countries that are buddy-buddy with the USA are frustrating as hell. As a Canadian, I’ve been done with their BS for so long that it’s not even funny.
I actually criticise the country so much that I can genuinely say I’m a certified hater. Plus, I also believe that patriotism for being Canadian or American is celebration of colonialism; we should deconstruct these countries instead of maintaining status quo. People got genocided just so cranky old white people can cry about immigrants from India and eat hotdogs and burgers on Canada day.
the easiest first step in ensuring that the usa and it’s ilk change their tune is to stop repeating the propaganda the usa already admitted to manufacturing thanks to the freedom of information act.
i’m referring to stuff like this:
if you’re to repeat their propaganda, you should atleast be getting paid for it.
In china, the state controls capital. In America, capital controls the state
It really is that simple. A market does not make capitalism ffs