• TractorDuffy@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      There’s a lot of innocent people in Israel that are fighting against the current regime, just like in your country. Don’t damn them just because you’re angry.

      • merdaverse@lemmy.zip
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        7 days ago

        most Israelis (81%) say the military has a very or somewhat good influence on the way things are going in Israel https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/how-israelis-view-their-government-institutions-and-leaders/

        73% of Israeli Jews think that suffering of the Iranian civilian population is not important in Iran War https://en.idi.org.il/articles/59726

        Support for Netanyahu’s party has gone up since 2023 and support for the opposition has gone down.

        There comes a time when you have to admit that the apple is too rotten to be saved. Nothing will change anytime soon; if anything it will only get worse.

        • TractorDuffy@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          …are you saying that the solution for genocide is more genocide? There are a lot of innocent people in Israel. We should not be nuking those people just because their government is failing them. And likewise, the innocent people of ALL countries (including yours :) should be spared when fixing the problems caused by a corrupt government.

          Nuking countries when your goal is to stop their leaders isn’t an option. Sorry. Try again.

          • pedz@lemmy.ca
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            7 days ago

            are you saying that the solution for genocide is more genocide?

            Israel not existing is not a genocide against Jews.

              • 7101334@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                Israel could stop existing without a single person dying.

                It wouldn’t happen, but it could.

                  • 7101334@lemmy.world
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                    6 days ago

                    It’s not exile if you’re not from there.

                    You’re not stateless if you’re not from there.

                    It’s not ethnic cleansing if you are a colonizer being removed.

                    With that said I don’t generally think that Israelis born there should be removed. But that’s up to the Palestinians, it’s their land.

          • merdaverse@lemmy.zip
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            7 days ago

            No other country has this much popular support for an ethno-supremacist nationalist policy of extermination. Even the US, which is the most hated worldwide right now, sits at 30% support, at best. The “innocent” people of Israel (if you can call people who serve in the IDF that) can always go back to the countries they came from before colonizing a land that wasn’t theirs, that was stolen through murder and displacement.

            I’m not pretending to know the solution, but the time for peaceful resolution has passed by at least 70 years. Any solution that comes now will involve violence against one side or the other. Thinking otherwise is utopian nonsense.

            • Triasha@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              There are several generations of Israelis born Israelis. They don’t have anywhere they are from to return to.

              I agree there is no realistic solution without genocide in sight, but that is not an excuse to support more genocide.

              The isrealis need to be condemned and isolated from international support. After we accomplish that, we can re evaluate. They might not be so bloodthirsty if the US and other countries weren’t so ride or die for the IDF.

              • 7101334@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                Also important to note that Palestine was a very diverse place before the occupation began.

                The problem isn’t specific people or a specific religion or specific genetics, it’s a diseased culture.

                Though at this point, it needs to be up to Palestinians who gets to stay and who doesn’t.

              • merdaverse@lemmy.zip
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                7 days ago

                Israelis can easily travel to Europe and the US. For example, in Germany, they can get citizenship if they can prove German descent. In other places they have advantaged programs for immigration compared to other non West countries. Choosing to stay is embracing Zionism. That’s the only peaceful solution, which obviously isn’t going to happen when 70-80% support the status quo and further expansionism.

                • Triasha@lemmy.world
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                  7 days ago

                  The majority of the Jewish population of Isreal are decended from the Soviet Union and the Middle East. When Isreal was founded 10s of thousands of Jews lived in North Africa and other middle eastern countries. Nearly all of them moved to Israel, and those countries will not welcome their children and grandchildren back.

          • theolodis@feddit.org
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            7 days ago

            I think what they want to say is that the solution for a colonial apartheid state is to send the colonizers home where they came from.

            Is that a genocide in your opinion?

      • warm@kbin.earth
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        8 days ago

        Its obviously hyperbole. Completely carpet bombing the population isnt a step I would want to take. But if Israel disappeared overnight, I surely wouldnt miss it.

        Also, lets not downplay the killing of thousands and thousands of innocents by Israel.

        • TractorDuffy@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Killing more innocents doesn’t solve the problem, AND is the same as your chief complaint.

          Don’t do that.

          • warm@kbin.earth
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            8 days ago

            Again, stop downplaying the murder of countless innocent lives.

            • TractorDuffy@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              I’m saying “Don’t kill more people”

              this is why reading comprehension is important folks 🤣

              • warm@kbin.earth
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                7 days ago

                Nobody disagrees with protecting innocent lives, well except Israel and the US. What you are doing is deflecting from the genocide and protecting the attackers. Otherwise you wouldnt reiterate on a point already covered.

                • TractorDuffy@lemmy.world
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                  7 days ago

                  Hi I’m sorry but that’s not correct

                  Nobody disagrees with protecting innocent lives

                  ^ this is wrong because you are arguing against me when I said no more innocents should be killed.

                  Not only are you wrong, but the reverse of what you’re saying is true. That means you’re either a liar or stupid. Pick one or we’ll pick for you.

                  • warm@kbin.earth
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                    7 days ago

                    Nope, you either failed to read my comment or understand it. Or you are being purposely malicious. We will go with the second option, given your relentless ignorance.

        • PearOfJudes@lemmy.ml
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          7 days ago

          The state, as an American ally, conducting genocide in the region needs to “dissapear.” The people, cannot dissapear.

      • kreskin@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        its a ridiculously tiny minority. And leaving Israel in that region means letting them continue their war crimes, and you know that. There is really no way around it. The only ethical solution is to eject them from the region entirely. The 8 year bloodbath needs to end.

        • PearOfJudes@lemmy.ml
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          7 days ago

          We can’t be opposed to the Gazan genocide and at the same time use genocidal language like “ejecting them from the region.” Them being Jewish people. Yes Israel should be sanctioned, and militarily invaded. Benjamin Netenyahu should be assassinated, and the country needs to be rid of the Zionist ideology. But there is simply no way to mass migrate a large population without great pain and suffering.

          Plus, if the Israeli people, the citizens not the elitist leaders and soldiers, were moved from their country, where would they go? To cause more violence in the regions they move to? The Israeli people have been subject to large scale mass international propaganda, they need to be deradicilized, not treated like parasites.

          I agree with having a firm, radical opposition to genocide, but individually, morally it is not good to use words like “flatten” or “eject.” I understand the anger, I think we all feel it.

          • a Kendrick fan@lemmy.ml
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            7 days ago

            We can’t be opposed to the Gazan genocide and at the same time use genocidal language like “ejecting them from the region.” Them being Jewish people.

            yes, we can

            That you don’t says so much about you and your values, it is also a reflection of the live you’ve led. Israel has no right to exist and by the wills of the Palestinians it would be extinguished, I’m so sick of western liberals and armchair arbitrators trying to support their government funded colonial project.

            If you still feel that Jews deserve their own space/country, carve out a giant hole on a map between Germany and Poland and move them back there, that’s where they came from and belong. Let’s see how long Europeans do a Holocaust 2.0

          • kreskin@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            Leaving them in the region obviously leads to an even worse outcome. They murder every day and dont consider others to be humans with any rights at all.

            And I flatly disagree that ejecting them is genocide. Equating the two is flatly untrue. If you need to define that as true then it must be true that the zionists genocided 750,000 people in the nakba, along with however many they just genocided in gaza, the west bank, syria, and Lebanon.

      • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
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        7 days ago

        doesnt seem like alot, if a majority is openly supporting it, plus they have international jewish people and thier backers supporting the zionist regime. the time to get rid of benny was him getting sent to jailed and not get elected. more or less we hear very little from opposition of bibi since the oct 7 attack.

    • kreskin@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      israelis are definitely not a people that are going to get better over time. Watch any interview with israelis talking about committing war crimes. They are always smiling. They absolutely love killing, and they dont care at all who it was. The only thing that will work is flattening them. Its their inevitable future and nothing can stop that now.

          • joan@lemmy.world
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            6 days ago

            not everyone in nazi germany was a nazi. you could argue they were complicit, but did every person deserve to be flattened?

          • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            6 days ago

            If, during WWII, you said that all Germans were happily committing war crimes and love killing with a smile on their face, you’d be racist.

            Just accept that you’re racist.

            • titanicx@lemmy.zip
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              6 days ago

              Nope I don’t hate jews I just feel that Israel should fall because it’s a Nazi state at this point. It’s encouraging not only apartheid and it has been for decades but it’s been openly committing genocide for the past several years. Just admit you’re an Israel apologist and it doesn’t matter how many people they kill how many children they murder or torture or how many women they rape that you will stand with that state no matter what enjoy your Zionism and fuck off.

        • kreskin@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          Ah yes, the old “if you respond to Israeli racism, then you are the racist” gambit.

          How about we just say that every human must be given whats in the UN declaration of universal human rights. You know, the document the Israels are one of the only countries in the would to vote against. You onboard with that?

          • joan@lemmy.world
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            6 days ago

            yes, the israeli government is racist and israel is conducting a genocide. saying all israelis absolutely love killing and must be immediately flattened is also objectively racist

            • kreskin@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              the standard for what happens to a population is never “all”. Its not reasonable to interview every member of a group. You have to trust polling. Are you claiming most israelis are good people who dont support the actions of their government? because all the data at hand says thats just not the case.

              • joan@lemmy.world
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                4 days ago

                well, if you mean most israelis, then say most israelis. assigning an opinion to an entire ethnic group is racist regardless of the opinion

                • kreskin@lemmy.world
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                  4 days ago

                  ok I’ll say the overwhelming, vast majority of israelis, sure. 90% of Israelis want war with Iran. 21% of Americans support war with Iran.

                  82% of israelis support the complete ethnic cleansing of all palestinians from their homes and any area Israel controls, regardless of whether they are innocent, based on their ethnicity (racism, see that? Are you spending any time opposing that? I dont see any time spent opposing that in your comments, which is odd)

                  68% of Israelis oppose giving human rights to all as outlined in the universal declaration of human rights. Not one of your concerns-- you are much more interested in not insulting the Israelis that arent in that 68% than the problem of the 68%'s actions. You pretend this is all happening as a rhetorical point rather than realities of 80-years of ongoing actions.

                  I do see a pattern of your comments Joan, of only having any criticism for people on what you claim is your side getting the message wrong. You dont want people to exactly say Donald Trump is a nazi, even though you object to his actions, you say. Similarly, If its not 100% of Israelis, you dont want blanket usage of “Israeli”. You are very concerned with letting people off the hook if they claim not to be in support of evil actions. You zero in on vagueries of the minor details and what ifs while ignoring the actual facts that should be orders of magnitude more important.

                  But sure. to humor you I will say the vast vast vast majority (clarification for u/joan). And you can consider your job done and that you addressed the key problems of our age. Keep on fighting, soldier.

                  • joan@lemmy.world
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                    4 days ago

                    i don’t really disagree with you… overall, yes, anyone who supports genocide from their government sucks! but giving ourselves a reason to be prejudiced against a group of people is how we make another genocide, not fix the ones that are happening. i don’t think being careful about racism is a ‘vaguery’ or a ‘minor detail’. thanks for the conversation! ✌️