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bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml to Memes@lemmy.ml · 4 days ago

Average convo with liberals when Ukraine comes up

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Average convo with liberals when Ukraine comes up

lemmy.ml

bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml to Memes@lemmy.ml · 4 days ago
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  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    1 day ago

    No, it’s reality that you’re denying. Ukraine is run by neo-Nazis, as was reported by the west, which you still disagree with as “Russian propaganda.” From @[email protected]

    • BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
    • Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
    • The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
    • The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
    • WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
    • Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
    • The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
    • openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
    • Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
    • Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev
    • Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
    • History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV

    Russia isn’t ethnically cleansing people, Kiev is.

    • MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world
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      1 day ago

      You don’t need to flood the zone…everybody is aware there’s Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, like there’s Neo-Nazis in Russia, and everywhere else.

      It’s absolutely Russian propaganda to present them as the entirely of Ukraine, and ignore that Russia is also  full of Nazis. Russia is also a repressive fascistic dictatorship.

      Don’t know what cooked your brain that you need to hyper focus on Ukraine’s problems and ignore Russia’s:

      https://www.sova-center.ru/en/xenophobia/reports-analyses/2025/02/d47102/ Independent Russian monitoring group SOVA documents trends in ideologically motivated violence, victim counts, and state responses, highlighting a resurgence of street attacks and online glorification of violence.

      https://jacobin.com/2024/12/neo-nazis-russia-ukraine-violence/ Long-form analysis linking wartime propaganda and online clout culture to renewed visibility of violent neo‑Nazi groups and their recruitment tactics.

      https://russianlife.com/the-russia-file/neo-nazis-return-to-russian-streets/ Magazine piece synthesizing reporting on street violence, Telegram channels, and SOVA statistics showing rising incidents in 2024.

      https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA3450-1.html Policy research on how Kremlin narratives about “denazification” are used strategically; useful for understanding state propaganda and external messaging.

      https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/2/4/503446.pdf Official OSCE materials and delegations’ statements addressing neo‑Nazi glorification and related regional concerns.

      https://carnegie-mec.org/russia-eurasia/research Scholarly analyses on Russian nationalism, state‑far‑right interactions, and implications.

      https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/11/how-the-traumas-of-2004-blinded-putin?lang=en Contextual piece linking historical trauma narratives to contemporary securitized rhetoric that can empower extremist frames.

      https://www.brookings.edu/regions/europe-eurasia/russia/ Policy briefs and expert commentary on Russian domestic politics, including far‑right trends and security implications.

      https://meduza.io/en/feature/2024/12/06/neo-nazi-street-attacks-are-making-a-comeback-in-russia-experts-link-it-to-2000s-nostalgia-internet-clout-culture-and-the-war Investigative reporting on viral attack videos, Telegram ecosystems, and cultural drivers behind renewed violence.

      https://www.isdglobal.org/isd-in-the-news/isds-steven-rai-on-the-resurgence-of-the-neo-nazi-accelerationist-group-the-base/ Expert commentary on transnational neo‑Nazi networks, recruitment, and links to conflict zones.

      https://www.dagens.com/war/neo-nazi-terror-group-with-ties-to-russia-recruits-for-attacks-in-ukraine News coverage of recruitment and alleged operational ties between extremist cells and Russian interests.

      https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jarees2001/2002/31/2002_31_57////_article Academic study tracing ideological roots, party actors, and social drivers of neo‑Nazi movements in Russia.

      https://academic.oup.com/book/45836/chapter/400752581 Scholarly chapter on neo‑Nazi networks in Russian prisons and their social dynamics.

      https://www.academia.edu/41133663/From_Red_to_Black_The_rise_of_Neo_Nazism_in_Russia_in_the_90 Historical overview useful for tracing evolution from 1990s skinhead subculture to modern groups.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/30/putin-says-ukraine-goals-will-be-achieved-as-he-repeats-neo-nazi-claims Reporting on official rhetoric that invokes “neo‑Nazi” narratives as justification for policy and war.

      No idea what radicalized you…for some people it’s because they’re tankies…for others it’s because they’re insane anti Americans. At the end of the day you’ve got tunnel vision and blinders.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        1 day ago

        The leadership in Kiev is neo-Nazi, it isn’t just a small group. Ukrainian citizens are suffering under the Banderite regime. Russia has neo-Nazis too, but they aren’t infesting the leadership, who are mostly nationalists supported by the majority of people for kicking out foreign imperialists that were plundering the country in the 90s. What radicalized me against western imperialism is living in a dying capitalist empire. I consume plenty of media from the west, there’s no tunnel vision nor blinders on. Being a communist and being anti-US Empire isn’t “insane.”

        • MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world
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          1 day ago

          You heard it here…dictator Putin: better than “Kiev”.

          It’s completely insane be to be so communist that you stampede past the fact that Russia was corrupted by capitalist oligarchs…and end up in favour an imperialist dictator. What a trip.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            19 hours ago

            I don’t miss that Russia is ruled by nationalists, I quite openly said that they are. Kiev is run by neo-Nazis and is a puppet of western imperialists. Russia isn’t imperialist, it lacks the finance capital necessary to be so, it’s western countries that are imperialist and using Ukraine like they do Israel, to secure their interests in the region. It isn’t at all “insane” to have a grounded and consistent understanding.

            You have this incredibly simplistic “good vs evil” thing going on here, and it’s clouding your judgement entirely.

            • MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world
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              18 hours ago

              F“Russia sucks at being imperialist” isn’t a great defence. They already took back half the eastern block, sometimes by proxy.

              They would have grabbed Ukraine and the Baltics, at least…and maybe Poland (also totally full of Nazis) if the west didn’t “step in”. It is what it is. Just because they’re shit at war doesn’t mean they wouldn’t do it in a vacuum.

              Listen…all I’m saying is that there no through lines to good and evil, here. It’s war…it’s a bunch of fascist imperialists fighting other fascist imperialists. At least the western fascist imperialists annex with capitalism instead of by governance. It’s like…I’m not choosing…I’m just talking about it.

              My ex girlfriend is the other extreme from you: she’s one of the liberal weirdos who emigrated to Ukraine because she needed a cause, I guess (she has no ties to Ukraine). Yes…she’s ended up at rallies that were Nazi rallies even though she thought they were pro Ukraine rallies…but the country isn’t some monolith of Nazism like you’re saying it it. The Nazis are a powerful minority. Nazis love war…on both sides of the border they’re laughing.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                13 hours ago

                Taking land isn’t necessarily imperialism. Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk all voted to join the Russian Federation, and Russia is annexing them not for resource extraction but to resolve the ethnic cleansing Kiev has levied against the Donbass region, and to create a buffer zone against NATO encirclement. Imperialism is a form of international extraction that functions by maintaining financial domination and monopoly, and using that to super-exploit the global south for super-profits.

                There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia is trying to “grab Poland, the Baltics, and the rest of Ukraine.” This is entirely fabricated on your end, Russia has no reason to do so nor is there any information on that.

                I’m not saying Ukraine is majority Nazi. I said the leadership is full of Nazis, because the Nazis took power during the Euromaidan coup. The people aren’t all Nazis, just like Statesians aren’t all MAGA, but just like pro-America rallies are almost all MAGA, nationalist rallies in Ukraine draw out the neo-Nazis. The difference between Nazis in Russia and Ukraine is that in Ukraine they actually control the government, in Russia there are just small pockets.

                • MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world
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                  8 hours ago

                  Sometimes you seem like a reasonable person…but it all goes out the window when you present open Russian deception like calling those propaganda tools “elections”. Those referendums were clearly staged by the military…the Crimean one laughably so, with 97% support. You’re also telling on yourself when you use odd language like the annexations weren’t for resource extraction. Who said they were? Crimea is a port and the others are (were) industrial hubs and a land border to the former.

                  No evidence? See…comments like that don’t make we want to continue with you…and it’s an insult that you expect me not to believe my lying ears. You know very well Putin, Medvedev and many others have repeatedly referred to Poland and the Baltics as occupied & openly bloviated about annexing them. They’ve literally massed forces on the border with them, and every other piece of “evidence” one could possible need…overt or implied. Trying to deny Russkiy Mir is just weird. I didn’t even bring up Finland and all the other regions Russian officials have commented on.

                  I’m going to take a break from you. Pretty unreasonable stuff, here.

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                    8 hours ago

                    Believe it or not, Crimeans supported being in the Russian Federation and not in a government run by Nazis post-coup. You yourself said Russia was being imperialist, annexation isn’t imperialism, imperialism is a specific form of international extractionism. Annexing territory can happen for a variety of reasons, only some of which is indicative of imperialism.

                    There is no evidence of Russia continuing beyond the 4 oblasts in Ukraine that isn’t NATO manufacturing consent for protracted war with Russia. Russia has no reason to continue beyond, but NATO has very good reason to want people to think they will.

                    Deny reality all you like.

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