• 🇵🇸antifa_ceo@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    edit-2
    6 hours ago

    I understand your desire for change NOW but the unfortunate reality is we do not yet have the conditions for it. There’s plenty of room to criticize many of these figures on the left in the US for various things - I have plenty of smoke for them as well.

    BUT while class consciousness remains nearly nonexistent in this country we must engage with the masses where they are at. We must be in the governmental structures that the masses are engaged in so we can be part of the conversation. We must run cadre candidates in elections EVEN WHEN THEY MIGHT LOSE (tactically though we only have so much capacity) so we can spread our message to more people. We must go to the trade unions and tenant unions so we are where the people closest to our movement are.

    Left coms will call me a reformist for this take but it is simply a necessary evil we must contend with in the interim. Even once we take control of society we will still have to reckon with the capitalist structures we inherit. We will not be able to do away with it in one fell swoop it simply does not work this way. It will be a decidedly incremental path of dismantling them one by one so we can return power back to the working class citizen.

    The primary goal MUST be a pragmatic takeover of the state by using and abusing the systems that exist today, doing what we can to expand the permissibility of our messaging until we no longer need these systems anymore. Organizing a true socialist movement that will not become subordinated to liberals (or hell even the rightist or far leftist socialist tendencies) or worse necessitates a more strategic and patient path towards global liberation and emancipation.

    • korendian@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      6 hours ago

      No no, you don’t understand, you’re only a true Marxist if you call for armed revolution. /s

      • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        2 hours ago

        Granted, I’m not well read on theory, but I missed the Marx letter to the Bavarian socialists about electoralism preventing the workers’ inevitable revolution…

      • 🇵🇸antifa_ceo@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        5 hours ago

        You joke but I think a lot of leftists online unironically believe this.

        And I’m not even saying armed revolution is necessarily off the table - but it’s certainly not what we try first or even second or third for that matter.

        • korendian@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          5 hours ago

          I will admit, we are getting onto our second or third option at this point, but people calling for armed revolution do not truly understand the impact that would have on society in the short term, and also how insanely difficult to impossible that idea actually is in modern American society. Democratic socialist ideas are only just starting to gain support now because liberalism has proven to be so ineffectual for long and it is a potential electoral path to start course correcting.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        5 hours ago

        I mean, kinda? Revolution is a core part of Marxism. There are rare instances like in Chile where voting worked, but then Allende was couped by the US and Pinochet.

        • korendian@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          5 hours ago

          There are plenty of marxist rooted ideologies that eschew violence, and opt for a more electoral or direct action/mutual aid type of approach to bringing about communism.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                5 hours ago

                All socialism is democratic, so I assume you mean reformist socialism. Reformism has extremely specific and limited use-cases, Allende being a short-lived example. Chile was able to successfully elect a Marxist, but he was ousted in a coup. It isn’t impossible, but relying on reformism as the main strategy in all or even most cases is a significant departure from Marxist analysis of the state and its class character.

                Libertarian socialism is more anarchist than anything, and has no problems with revolution. I don’t see why you bring it up.

                • korendian@lemmy.zip
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  4 hours ago

                  No not all socialism is democratic. Libertarian socialism is by definition non-violent. You cannot be libertarian while also advocating for violence against others.

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    4 hours ago

                    Incorrect on both counts. Democracy is rule by the majority, socialism is a mode of production where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working class is in control of the state. Libertarianism just refers to a limited state, it cares nothing about how that is achieved. Anarchism and anarchist-adjacent ideologies are almost always revolutionary as well. Pacifism is uncommon.