Almost all state sponsored or (worse) self-serving “theory” from AES is fan-fiction and has little to do with reality for obvious reasons. The same is of course usually true for so called economic theory from liberal capitalist states.
Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔
Marxist theory in so far as it was actually written by Marx and marxists (as opposed to marxist-leninists, a deviant offshot that is mainly just post-hoc justifications for people that ursuped state power for personal gain), is largely in agreement with anarchist theory and most of what Marx wrote in his younger days was summaries and borderline plagiats of earlier anarchist and socialist thinkers. It has some flaws, especially in regards to materialism though, and Marx himself became a reactionary after having a fallout with people that showed him the flaws in his arguments.
Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know.
It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don’t like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there’s 0 chance you’re convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any.
I did provide plenty of arguments, but you seem to be so deep into the fan-fiction that you fail to understand them. And Materialism as proposed by Marx has little resemblence to how actual societies outside of some extreme resource starved communities work, and there is literally a hundred years plus of literature that shows so. That you still stick to a long disproven theory and see “no flaw” in it should give you plenty of thought about how up to date your other ideas are.
And yes, Lenin’s earlier works had very interested readers in the German state security aparatus at the time.
You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply “don’t understand” your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you’ve been declaring.
As for materialism being disproven, again, you don’t explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference “a hundred plus years of literature” without giving any examples, or explaining how it’s supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you’ve given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you’re correct. All you’ve done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic.
As for Lenin’s theory, you still haven’t actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument.
I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so?
What “obvious reasons?” The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There’s also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism.
Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice.
Further, there’s no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction!
Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice?
Lol, you seriously think that the self-serving texts of counter-revolutionaries that ursurped control of the state are in any shape or form trustworthy? How removed from praxis and reality can you be?
From the provisional government that was formed after the February revolution that took power from the Tzar and started organizing elections, which the Bolshevik lost and then decided to take power by force.
The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you’re ignoring.
I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them “counter-revolutionaries” without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I’ve already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying “no” is not an argument, and telling me I’m removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn’t the case is naked Ad Hominem.
Claiming to be socialist doesn’t make a state so. Just saying “but I believe them” is no argument, when all the practical reality shows that these states were and are state-capitalist with a tiny ruling elite.
And please read some actual history and eye-witness reports about the Russian revolution, and not the fan-fiction that people directly involved or their later syncopants wrote. Lenin and his gang were absolutly counter-revolutionaries that re-established a capitalist state, but with them in control. Lenin was literally allowed to go there by the German government to do just that.
And it is kinda funny that you are now arguing about ad-hominem when you said the very same thing first.
I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position.
State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China’s and Vietnam’s socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these “state capitalist” despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state.
Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as “state capitalism,” you’re just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism.
This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a “tiny ruling elite,” they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering.
If the CPSU were a “tiny ruling elite,” they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus?
Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy.
There’s absolutely nothing backing what you’ve claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly.
Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing.
More circular logic. Someone that administers the state is by definition no longer working class.
And if you abolish the typical liberal capitalist ways of wealth accumulation, then the data and ways of measuring such stops making sense, but this doesn’t change the fact that the people at the top of these states comandeered vast wealth and used that for their personal benefit and pet projects. And this is also a typical characteristic of state-capitalism where the people in charge are typically living a quite low profile life outside their public persona a few cultivate for vain reasons.
And yes there was some political disagreement at the time in Germany, which also had gone though significant political upheaval recently, but to allow someone to go that you know is in favour of establishing a capitalist state when you dislike the alternative is sure sowing chaos or you could also say they wished for a counter-revolution to take place, which they got through the hands of Lenin.
Class is a relation to ownership of the means of production, not a job. This is the definition of class. Administrators that receive salaries for their labor and share equal ownership with the rest of the working classes are by definition working class. Simply saying that they aren’t does not actually disprove this, at minimum you need to explain why the Marxist understanding of class, class interest, and the state is wrong.
I find it funny that you admit that socialism is entirely different from capitalism, and thus reduce socialism to “equalism” rather than a system with proletarian control of the state and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Disparity between administrators in socialism and the rest of the working classes is far smaller than the immense appropriation of surplus value by capitalists, precisely because the mechanisms are entirely different.
Finally, again, the USSR was not capitalist, and Lenin was not a counter-revolutionary. If your only argument that Lenin was a counter-revolutionary is because he established a socialist state and overthrew a capitalist one, then I’m not sure who you’re trying to convince. Anyone can see that that’s clearly silly, and you haven’t provided a coherent explanation for your views behind class and capitalism.
Class relations are indeed a matter of control over the means of production. If you monopolize them through controlling the state then you are no longer working class. No amount of circular make-believe logic changes that.
Abolishing stock ownership and similar means of how liberal capitalist states represent the wealth of its ruling elite does not make a state “socialist”. I never made any comparison or difference to socialism and that also would make so sense since we never talked about socialist states, other than some that nominally claim(ed) to be so.
Just saying: no I disagree with historical facts is no argument 🤷 But indeed if that is the level of your argument then I wonder who I am trying to convince. Usually I do not argue with religious zealots that ignore reality.
Almost all state sponsored or (worse) self-serving “theory” from AES is fan-fiction and has little to do with reality for obvious reasons. The same is of course usually true for so called economic theory from liberal capitalist states.
Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔
Marxist theory in so far as it was actually written by Marx and marxists (as opposed to marxist-leninists, a deviant offshot that is mainly just post-hoc justifications for people that ursuped state power for personal gain), is largely in agreement with anarchist theory and most of what Marx wrote in his younger days was summaries and borderline plagiats of earlier anarchist and socialist thinkers. It has some flaws, especially in regards to materialism though, and Marx himself became a reactionary after having a fallout with people that showed him the flaws in his arguments.
Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know.
It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don’t like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there’s 0 chance you’re convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any.
I did provide plenty of arguments, but you seem to be so deep into the fan-fiction that you fail to understand them. And Materialism as proposed by Marx has little resemblence to how actual societies outside of some extreme resource starved communities work, and there is literally a hundred years plus of literature that shows so. That you still stick to a long disproven theory and see “no flaw” in it should give you plenty of thought about how up to date your other ideas are.
And yes, Lenin’s earlier works had very interested readers in the German state security aparatus at the time.
You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply “don’t understand” your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you’ve been declaring.
As for materialism being disproven, again, you don’t explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference “a hundred plus years of literature” without giving any examples, or explaining how it’s supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you’ve given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you’re correct. All you’ve done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic.
As for Lenin’s theory, you still haven’t actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument.
I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so?
What “obvious reasons?” The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There’s also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism.
Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice.
Further, there’s no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction!
Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice?
Lol, you seriously think that the self-serving texts of counter-revolutionaries that ursurped control of the state are in any shape or form trustworthy? How removed from praxis and reality can you be?
Usurped control of the state from…who?
From the provisional government that was formed after the February revolution that took power from the Tzar and started organizing elections, which the Bolshevik lost and then decided to take power by force.
The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you’re ignoring.
I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them “counter-revolutionaries” without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I’ve already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying “no” is not an argument, and telling me I’m removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn’t the case is naked Ad Hominem.
Claiming to be socialist doesn’t make a state so. Just saying “but I believe them” is no argument, when all the practical reality shows that these states were and are state-capitalist with a tiny ruling elite.
And please read some actual history and eye-witness reports about the Russian revolution, and not the fan-fiction that people directly involved or their later syncopants wrote. Lenin and his gang were absolutly counter-revolutionaries that re-established a capitalist state, but with them in control. Lenin was literally allowed to go there by the German government to do just that.
And it is kinda funny that you are now arguing about ad-hominem when you said the very same thing first.
I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position.
State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China’s and Vietnam’s socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these “state capitalist” despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state.
Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as “state capitalism,” you’re just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism.
This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a “tiny ruling elite,” they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering.
If the CPSU were a “tiny ruling elite,” they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus?
Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy.
There’s absolutely nothing backing what you’ve claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly.
Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing.
More circular logic. Someone that administers the state is by definition no longer working class.
And if you abolish the typical liberal capitalist ways of wealth accumulation, then the data and ways of measuring such stops making sense, but this doesn’t change the fact that the people at the top of these states comandeered vast wealth and used that for their personal benefit and pet projects. And this is also a typical characteristic of state-capitalism where the people in charge are typically living a quite low profile life outside their public persona a few cultivate for vain reasons.
And yes there was some political disagreement at the time in Germany, which also had gone though significant political upheaval recently, but to allow someone to go that you know is in favour of establishing a capitalist state when you dislike the alternative is sure sowing chaos or you could also say they wished for a counter-revolution to take place, which they got through the hands of Lenin.
Class is a relation to ownership of the means of production, not a job. This is the definition of class. Administrators that receive salaries for their labor and share equal ownership with the rest of the working classes are by definition working class. Simply saying that they aren’t does not actually disprove this, at minimum you need to explain why the Marxist understanding of class, class interest, and the state is wrong.
I find it funny that you admit that socialism is entirely different from capitalism, and thus reduce socialism to “equalism” rather than a system with proletarian control of the state and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Disparity between administrators in socialism and the rest of the working classes is far smaller than the immense appropriation of surplus value by capitalists, precisely because the mechanisms are entirely different.
Finally, again, the USSR was not capitalist, and Lenin was not a counter-revolutionary. If your only argument that Lenin was a counter-revolutionary is because he established a socialist state and overthrew a capitalist one, then I’m not sure who you’re trying to convince. Anyone can see that that’s clearly silly, and you haven’t provided a coherent explanation for your views behind class and capitalism.
Class relations are indeed a matter of control over the means of production. If you monopolize them through controlling the state then you are no longer working class. No amount of circular make-believe logic changes that.
Abolishing stock ownership and similar means of how liberal capitalist states represent the wealth of its ruling elite does not make a state “socialist”. I never made any comparison or difference to socialism and that also would make so sense since we never talked about socialist states, other than some that nominally claim(ed) to be so.
Just saying: no I disagree with historical facts is no argument 🤷 But indeed if that is the level of your argument then I wonder who I am trying to convince. Usually I do not argue with religious zealots that ignore reality.