Nationalists weren’t the only one upset. Lots of people wanted Ukraine to head west, because western (as in EU) economic ties seemed to have far brighter perspectives than the russian ones. More over, it still is, as Russia has all the resources needed to surpass EU in every way possible, yet it struggles, thanks to the degree of corruption present, as well as its oligarchic nature. Orientation for EU promised the potential to get Ukraine out of the state it had been in after the 90s.
Secondly, saying slavic peoples share a lot in common is similar to saying Chinese ethnicities have a lot in common.
Except there isn’t, as i already stated, unless, once again, as i already stated, if we’re talking about cultural minorities, present in particular isolated regions of both countries. Ukrainian region had significant cultural differences, only those lost its relevance when the soviet era came into place, and i’ve already explained why. The differences between modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are mainly political, and it becomes really apparent as soon as you compare a ukrainian to russian, and then to polish or slovakian.
Until you point out the concrete differences on which basis “ethnic cleansing” could be commensed, your point will sound ridiculous to me, born ukrainian, who happened to be friends with individuals from far west and far east both of Ukraine and Russia, as well i hapen to be aquainted with some belarussians and kazakhs. I also did visit Moscow before the shit stirred, lived in Czechia, and been to Poland after. I think i have some credibility on the topic of modern slavic cultures and their differences, thank you very much.
Your argument about “ethnic cleansing” is not even remotely representative of my observed reality. If it was the case, there would’ve been family tree investigations on the whole ukrainian territory, concentration camps as all people from investigated regions would’ve been suspended, and so on. Cities like Kharkiv, Odessa, or Dnipro would’ve also been “cleansed” just as the Ukrainian far east supposedly was, those regions had voted for Yanukovich in their majority after all, and people there also primarily speak russian.
Nobody seemed to “cleanse” them, until the “valiant Russian military” came and did it first tho. And that was despite Kremlins agenda about the need to defend russian speakers no matter in what part of the world they live. People freely fled the eastern regions since the very start of armed conflicts as well, and the ukrainian government was aiding them at that.
Regarding the nationality, those movements are irrelevant to what i’ve said. Both imperialism and national liberation should not exist. First is cancerous and exploitative in its nature, second is based on a fictional idea of nationality and leads to nothing more than poverty and infighting after the liberation part is done.
Let me repeat myself, nationalism is a tool of tribalism, and tribalism leads to disasters. See modern Ukraine, modern Russia, modern US, the whole deal with Kosovo or the Nagorno-Korabakh conflict.
And where nationalism isn’t a disaster yet, it results in bigotry and prejudice. See eastern-european countries like Czech Republic or Poland.
Liberating countries only seems like a great idea on paper, only, without the proper economic conditions being met, the result is always far from beneficial. Post-soviet countries or Balkans are great examples. “We have nothing to eat, our country has no means of economical growth, but at least we have our fantasy about how we first came to be independent, and it really unites us” ~ uggh, thanks no thanks, keep this shit to yourself. It’s degenerative and outright harmful to think in those categories, or instill such thinking onto others, and gives of “divide and conquer” type of narrative. People are people, and should be treated as such first and foremost. If you deceive them “for the greater good”, or because sovereignity on some imaginary basis is morally correct in your book, that just makes you a manipulative cunt, treating people as means to an end.
National division ceases to exist only if everyone is emancipated, which is not possible. Unless the state is large enough to have all the resources to not only achieve its emancipation, but also prolong it indefinitely, it is inherently dependent on others, which in turn leads to power imbalance, therefore conflicts on that basis, which in turn, leads to tribalistic behaviour. In modern doctrine that amounts to rises of nationalistic ideologies in such regions.
And once again, you don’t sound persuasive, if all you can is to insist for me to read some book, without ability to provide sufficient arguments yourself. A reference without citation is worthless, and cannot be considered a counter-thesis. Such behaviour only makes me think, that you prefer blindly accepting any information presented by authoritative-enough source, to applying critical thinking and analysis of said information yourself.
I, for one, won’t ever recommend a book to a rando on the internet, unless directly asked to do so. Especially if we’re talking about politics and worldviews. The world is constantly changing,but the books don’t. They where written in a certain context, for people that existed inside of that context. They are nothing more than a dead knowledge of the past with not necessarily correct world’s perception of the author layered on top, and they should be treated as such. Meaning, while reading a text we should always compare the depicted reality with the observed one. Otherwise you’re just falling into dogmatism.
If this wasn’t the case for you, you’d be able to provide sufficient reasoning yourself based on pure logic and observed information. Instead, you’re spouting the same bs about ethnic cleansing third time in a row, completely ignoring my counter-arguments, as well as defending the need for practicing the ideology that should be history in our modern globalistic society, purely because it serves as a tool of political manipulation, and is suggested as such by some book.
Again, having a shared land, history, culture, and language is enough to form a distinct nation. Simply claiming that imperialism shouldn’t exist doesn’t mean that it doesn’t, and national liberation using Vietnam as an example is progressive in the context of freeing Vietnam from colonialism. Nationalism in the US perpetuates imperialism, nationalism in Vietnam works towards ending it. It doesn’t matter how much you don’t want nations to exist, they will until imperialism is ended and global socialism is achieved, and as such we need to first end imperialism, where nationalism in the imperialized countries is a useful tool.
Sure, except all of those define a culture, and not a nation. For instance, France, the very first national state no less, contains multiple such cultures. Italy as well, became a thing only when the Napoleon came. Despite having cultural and linguistic differences, italians still somehow consider themself italians.
The definition of a nation really is an ambiguous one, and there’s no wonder. It initially was invented to overthrow the monarchic regime, while retaining all the territories of said monarchy. Ambiguity arises as soon as you try to draw a border between cultures, dividing them into separate nations. You see, everything culture-related comes in gradients, rather than distinct islands. How’d you distinguish eastern ukrainian from western russian? How’d you distinguish Western slovak from eastern czech? Because even linguistic and genetic analysis won’t be a guarantee there.
And the way the modern society is, with all the globalism, all the relocations, diasporas and etcetera, the idea of a national state completely loses its purpose, other than to separate the local resources, regime and economy, of course.
Separation of a culture can lead to enhancement of individual life quality, but so does the adjustment of inner politics. “Liberation” as you call it, does not change the economic potential of any given region, yet introduces migration-related beuraucracy complications, devoiding people of possible social lifts, while allowing for third party influence that might lead to conflict, you know, like it was with Ukraine:).
Also, local authorities might exploit their compatriots just the same the occupants did.
In other words, “liberation” is a step into the void, that doesn’t guarantee anything, and nationalism is nothing more than a way for manipulation and indoctrination to instill further segregation, that, as i said, is neither necessary nor relevant in the modern day.
That’s why we should fight both nationalism, and imperialism and unite based of political views rather than cultural heritage. And it’s not like nobody had done anything similar before, USA was exactly about that before it became the world exploitating hegemony we know today. That’s what USSR was about at its inception as well.
Stop thinking about the world apparatus the way people did in 19th century, the world had quite changed since then, and to change further and do so for the better, rather than for worse, we should think with our heads rather than dogmatically follow the theories of those who never tried them on practice, while having far less information about their world than we do.
Anyway, how did the liberation of Vietnam affect the common people? And were the positive changes the effects of liberation, or just a result of the regime change for the more progressive one, as well as the result of the war finally ending? What modern Vietnam represents as a sovereign economic unit, and could the common people be wealthier and happier if the country would’ve been a part of a larger state?
You’re arguing against a strawman. Fanon was a resistance fighter that successfully helped Algeria overthrow the French in a progressive nationalist movement against colonialism, not a simple theoretician that never engaged with practice. For Vietnam, the effects of liberating from France and adopting socialism as the mode of production both contributed to their success. The era of national divisions eroding is something for after the end of imperialism, in the meantime a people should be able to chart their own course free from the domination of the west.
Nationalists weren’t the only one upset. Lots of people wanted Ukraine to head west, because western (as in EU) economic ties seemed to have far brighter perspectives than the russian ones. More over, it still is, as Russia has all the resources needed to surpass EU in every way possible, yet it struggles, thanks to the degree of corruption present, as well as its oligarchic nature. Orientation for EU promised the potential to get Ukraine out of the state it had been in after the 90s.
Except there isn’t, as i already stated, unless, once again, as i already stated, if we’re talking about cultural minorities, present in particular isolated regions of both countries. Ukrainian region had significant cultural differences, only those lost its relevance when the soviet era came into place, and i’ve already explained why. The differences between modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are mainly political, and it becomes really apparent as soon as you compare a ukrainian to russian, and then to polish or slovakian.
Until you point out the concrete differences on which basis “ethnic cleansing” could be commensed, your point will sound ridiculous to me, born ukrainian, who happened to be friends with individuals from far west and far east both of Ukraine and Russia, as well i hapen to be aquainted with some belarussians and kazakhs. I also did visit Moscow before the shit stirred, lived in Czechia, and been to Poland after. I think i have some credibility on the topic of modern slavic cultures and their differences, thank you very much.
Your argument about “ethnic cleansing” is not even remotely representative of my observed reality. If it was the case, there would’ve been family tree investigations on the whole ukrainian territory, concentration camps as all people from investigated regions would’ve been suspended, and so on. Cities like Kharkiv, Odessa, or Dnipro would’ve also been “cleansed” just as the Ukrainian far east supposedly was, those regions had voted for Yanukovich in their majority after all, and people there also primarily speak russian.
Nobody seemed to “cleanse” them, until the “valiant Russian military” came and did it first tho. And that was despite Kremlins agenda about the need to defend russian speakers no matter in what part of the world they live. People freely fled the eastern regions since the very start of armed conflicts as well, and the ukrainian government was aiding them at that.
Regarding the nationality, those movements are irrelevant to what i’ve said. Both imperialism and national liberation should not exist. First is cancerous and exploitative in its nature, second is based on a fictional idea of nationality and leads to nothing more than poverty and infighting after the liberation part is done.
Let me repeat myself, nationalism is a tool of tribalism, and tribalism leads to disasters. See modern Ukraine, modern Russia, modern US, the whole deal with Kosovo or the Nagorno-Korabakh conflict.
And where nationalism isn’t a disaster yet, it results in bigotry and prejudice. See eastern-european countries like Czech Republic or Poland.
Liberating countries only seems like a great idea on paper, only, without the proper economic conditions being met, the result is always far from beneficial. Post-soviet countries or Balkans are great examples. “We have nothing to eat, our country has no means of economical growth, but at least we have our fantasy about how we first came to be independent, and it really unites us” ~ uggh, thanks no thanks, keep this shit to yourself. It’s degenerative and outright harmful to think in those categories, or instill such thinking onto others, and gives of “divide and conquer” type of narrative. People are people, and should be treated as such first and foremost. If you deceive them “for the greater good”, or because sovereignity on some imaginary basis is morally correct in your book, that just makes you a manipulative cunt, treating people as means to an end.
National division ceases to exist only if everyone is emancipated, which is not possible. Unless the state is large enough to have all the resources to not only achieve its emancipation, but also prolong it indefinitely, it is inherently dependent on others, which in turn leads to power imbalance, therefore conflicts on that basis, which in turn, leads to tribalistic behaviour. In modern doctrine that amounts to rises of nationalistic ideologies in such regions.
And once again, you don’t sound persuasive, if all you can is to insist for me to read some book, without ability to provide sufficient arguments yourself. A reference without citation is worthless, and cannot be considered a counter-thesis. Such behaviour only makes me think, that you prefer blindly accepting any information presented by authoritative-enough source, to applying critical thinking and analysis of said information yourself.
I, for one, won’t ever recommend a book to a rando on the internet, unless directly asked to do so. Especially if we’re talking about politics and worldviews. The world is constantly changing,but the books don’t. They where written in a certain context, for people that existed inside of that context. They are nothing more than a dead knowledge of the past with not necessarily correct world’s perception of the author layered on top, and they should be treated as such. Meaning, while reading a text we should always compare the depicted reality with the observed one. Otherwise you’re just falling into dogmatism.
If this wasn’t the case for you, you’d be able to provide sufficient reasoning yourself based on pure logic and observed information. Instead, you’re spouting the same bs about ethnic cleansing third time in a row, completely ignoring my counter-arguments, as well as defending the need for practicing the ideology that should be history in our modern globalistic society, purely because it serves as a tool of political manipulation, and is suggested as such by some book.
Again, having a shared land, history, culture, and language is enough to form a distinct nation. Simply claiming that imperialism shouldn’t exist doesn’t mean that it doesn’t, and national liberation using Vietnam as an example is progressive in the context of freeing Vietnam from colonialism. Nationalism in the US perpetuates imperialism, nationalism in Vietnam works towards ending it. It doesn’t matter how much you don’t want nations to exist, they will until imperialism is ended and global socialism is achieved, and as such we need to first end imperialism, where nationalism in the imperialized countries is a useful tool.
Sure, except all of those define a culture, and not a nation. For instance, France, the very first national state no less, contains multiple such cultures. Italy as well, became a thing only when the Napoleon came. Despite having cultural and linguistic differences, italians still somehow consider themself italians.
The definition of a nation really is an ambiguous one, and there’s no wonder. It initially was invented to overthrow the monarchic regime, while retaining all the territories of said monarchy. Ambiguity arises as soon as you try to draw a border between cultures, dividing them into separate nations. You see, everything culture-related comes in gradients, rather than distinct islands. How’d you distinguish eastern ukrainian from western russian? How’d you distinguish Western slovak from eastern czech? Because even linguistic and genetic analysis won’t be a guarantee there.
And the way the modern society is, with all the globalism, all the relocations, diasporas and etcetera, the idea of a national state completely loses its purpose, other than to separate the local resources, regime and economy, of course.
Separation of a culture can lead to enhancement of individual life quality, but so does the adjustment of inner politics. “Liberation” as you call it, does not change the economic potential of any given region, yet introduces migration-related beuraucracy complications, devoiding people of possible social lifts, while allowing for third party influence that might lead to conflict, you know, like it was with Ukraine:).
Also, local authorities might exploit their compatriots just the same the occupants did.
In other words, “liberation” is a step into the void, that doesn’t guarantee anything, and nationalism is nothing more than a way for manipulation and indoctrination to instill further segregation, that, as i said, is neither necessary nor relevant in the modern day.
That’s why we should fight both nationalism, and imperialism and unite based of political views rather than cultural heritage. And it’s not like nobody had done anything similar before, USA was exactly about that before it became the world exploitating hegemony we know today. That’s what USSR was about at its inception as well.
Stop thinking about the world apparatus the way people did in 19th century, the world had quite changed since then, and to change further and do so for the better, rather than for worse, we should think with our heads rather than dogmatically follow the theories of those who never tried them on practice, while having far less information about their world than we do.
Anyway, how did the liberation of Vietnam affect the common people? And were the positive changes the effects of liberation, or just a result of the regime change for the more progressive one, as well as the result of the war finally ending? What modern Vietnam represents as a sovereign economic unit, and could the common people be wealthier and happier if the country would’ve been a part of a larger state?
You’re arguing against a strawman. Fanon was a resistance fighter that successfully helped Algeria overthrow the French in a progressive nationalist movement against colonialism, not a simple theoretician that never engaged with practice. For Vietnam, the effects of liberating from France and adopting socialism as the mode of production both contributed to their success. The era of national divisions eroding is something for after the end of imperialism, in the meantime a people should be able to chart their own course free from the domination of the west.