I agree with the general premise, that this country is not ready to elect a woman President. Lots of people in it are, but not enough in the right zip codes to make it in our system.
But, if you ask these people why they are not voting for a candidate, they will not say “it’s because she has a vagina”. They are too self aware to know that they can’t say it out loud. So, they say things like “I just don’t like her enough” or “she’s too shrill and bossy”.
My actual favorite excuse from the last election was the guy who said “she reminds me of my ex-wife”. At least he’s being honest.
Yes, I agree with you, using words like “shrill” or “bossy” is a great example of a sort of masked misogyny, which is why you used them in your example.
Those two words, among others, are words that are used almost exclusively about women. It can be helpful to point their usage out and call out latent misogyny.
“Aggressive” and “likeable” are not words that this works for. The commenter we’re talking about is tone policing words that aren’t even debatably used the same way, and it’s the kind of weird, fussy, oversensitive nonsense that is aggravating and distracting.
It’s also massively rude to imply somebody is a misogynist without any grounding at all, simply because they did not like a candidate who - incidentally - is a woman.
Women, because they’re humans just like men, have the capacity to be disliked for their actions and words.
Oh, hard disagree there. There is a certain class of misogynist who likes their women docile. They “dislike” anyone woman who they dont find “agreeable”, and view women who express their own opinions as “aggressive”.
Is it an overly broad generalization? Maybe. But it tracks!
My point is that they are all self aware enough to know they can’t just say “I just won’t vote for any woman”, so they will give you any other reason if asked. It doesn’t have to make sense to us, as long as they can justify it in their head.
And that, in our current political climate, there are just enough of these losers, in the right zip codes, to make a difference.
This is part of the reason I so strongly want AOC to take over Schumer’s Senate seat for a term or three. If she runs for President in 2028, she will probably lose. But if she moves to the Senate and is as effective there as she has been in the House, maybe the country will be ready by 2040.
Edit: just as an update, I’ve since learned that I was wrong and that “aggressive” and “un/likeable” are misogynistic red-flag terms. I apologise, you were right about those terms.
I absolutely hear you and I don’t disagree.
It’s really frustrating that people lie about their shitty bigoted feelings. Whether that’s because they’re incurious about why they dislike a female candidate (i.e. not interested in facing or dealing with their internalised misogyny), or they’re ashamed that they feel that way, or they secretly feel that they’re right to feel that way, or as you say they’re just outright proud misogynists who know that the optics of saying “I won’t vote for her because she’s a woman” are bad, it doesn’t matter.
One of the most difficult impacts of people lying about their real reasons for disliking candidates that are part of marginalised groups is that it makes the rest of us have to be very vigilant around any criticism of those candidates, because there is always the chance that somebody criticising that candidate is a racist, a homophobe, or a misogynist, and is trying to mask that. That means it is actually harder to genuinely just “not like” a candidate, for their personality, words, actions, etc., because good people are rightly paranoid.
Anyway, honestly I don’t think we’re disagreeing on fundamentals here. I’m just trying to explain why I am reluctant to label people as misogynists without any “real” clue, such as using those red-flag words like “bossy” or “shrill”. I know it’s a bit fussy but it’s important to me that we can be clear about things like that.
Agreed that the US is not ready for AOC in 2028. Also agreed that it would be good to see her energised and with a seat in the senate. HUGELY agreed that it would be fantastic to see Schumer piss off to whatever millionaire’s pigpen he’ll wind up in.
I get what that poster is doing.
I agree with the general premise, that this country is not ready to elect a woman President. Lots of people in it are, but not enough in the right zip codes to make it in our system.
But, if you ask these people why they are not voting for a candidate, they will not say “it’s because she has a vagina”. They are too self aware to know that they can’t say it out loud. So, they say things like “I just don’t like her enough” or “she’s too shrill and bossy”.
My actual favorite excuse from the last election was the guy who said “she reminds me of my ex-wife”. At least he’s being honest.
Yes, I agree with you, using words like “shrill” or “bossy” is a great example of a sort of masked misogyny, which is why you used them in your example.
Those two words, among others, are words that are used almost exclusively about women. It can be helpful to point their usage out and call out latent misogyny.
“Aggressive” and “likeable” are not words that this works for. The commenter we’re talking about is tone policing words that aren’t even debatably used the same way, and it’s the kind of weird, fussy, oversensitive nonsense that is aggravating and distracting.
It’s also massively rude to imply somebody is a misogynist without any grounding at all, simply because they did not like a candidate who - incidentally - is a woman.
Women, because they’re humans just like men, have the capacity to be disliked for their actions and words.
Oh, hard disagree there. There is a certain class of misogynist who likes their women docile. They “dislike” anyone woman who they dont find “agreeable”, and view women who express their own opinions as “aggressive”.
Is it an overly broad generalization? Maybe. But it tracks!
I think I’d take it a step further and say all misogynists like their women docile. That’s why “bossy” is such a loaded word.
But “dislike”? “Agreeable”? “Aggressive”? I can’t agree that those three are misogynistic terms, or even signifiers of misogyny.
I guess we just disagree on terms though. 🤷♂️ No ill will towards you or anything! It seems like we’re on board with misogyny being bad 😂
My point is that they are all self aware enough to know they can’t just say “I just won’t vote for any woman”, so they will give you any other reason if asked. It doesn’t have to make sense to us, as long as they can justify it in their head.
And that, in our current political climate, there are just enough of these losers, in the right zip codes, to make a difference.
This is part of the reason I so strongly want AOC to take over Schumer’s Senate seat for a term or three. If she runs for President in 2028, she will probably lose. But if she moves to the Senate and is as effective there as she has been in the House, maybe the country will be ready by 2040.
Edit: just as an update, I’ve since learned that I was wrong and that “aggressive” and “un/likeable” are misogynistic red-flag terms. I apologise, you were right about those terms.
I absolutely hear you and I don’t disagree.
It’s really frustrating that people lie about their shitty bigoted feelings. Whether that’s because they’re incurious about why they dislike a female candidate (i.e. not interested in facing or dealing with their internalised misogyny), or they’re ashamed that they feel that way, or they secretly feel that they’re right to feel that way, or as you say they’re just outright proud misogynists who know that the optics of saying “I won’t vote for her because she’s a woman” are bad, it doesn’t matter.
One of the most difficult impacts of people lying about their real reasons for disliking candidates that are part of marginalised groups is that it makes the rest of us have to be very vigilant around any criticism of those candidates, because there is always the chance that somebody criticising that candidate is a racist, a homophobe, or a misogynist, and is trying to mask that. That means it is actually harder to genuinely just “not like” a candidate, for their personality, words, actions, etc., because good people are rightly paranoid.
Anyway, honestly I don’t think we’re disagreeing on fundamentals here. I’m just trying to explain why I am reluctant to label people as misogynists without any “real” clue, such as using those red-flag words like “bossy” or “shrill”. I know it’s a bit fussy but it’s important to me that we can be clear about things like that.
Agreed that the US is not ready for AOC in 2028. Also agreed that it would be good to see her energised and with a seat in the senate. HUGELY agreed that it would be fantastic to see Schumer piss off to whatever millionaire’s pigpen he’ll wind up in.
Definitely agree, AOC would be most effective in and have the best chance to win Schumer’s seat.