The economic strarification in the DPRK is among the lowest in the world. The DPRK is not a wealthy country, nor is the Kim family excessively wealthy. They have privledges above and beyond the average person, no doubt, but the function of the DPRK’s economy fundamentally cannot reach the same levels of stratification that capitalist economies do. The DPRK is not really a market economy, it doesn’t really engage in traditional commodity production outside of Rason and other areas, and because of that rhere aren’t these extreme profits to give to the Kim family even if they wanted to.
You also keep repeating the idea that there’s very little democratic input, but that just isn’t the case. The system requires worker input to function, it isn’t a capitalist economy that can rely on markets to sort distribution. There’s money, for sure, and some limited private property, but fundamentally the system cannot exist without those running society being able to have a say. The Kim family couldn’t possibly run everything by themselves even if they wanted to. Labor is collectively organized, society-wide.
As far as control of information is concerned, that’s a very standard measure proposed by Marx in the manifesto itself, it’s very easy for outside influences to overwhelm the information sphere for their own gain. The US has been known to do that, especially with tools like Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Asia, etc. Defectors were far more common in the past, during the Arduous March when the Soviet Union dissolved and natural disasters led to famine. There are even defectors that risk their lives going back to the DPRK.
All in all, you seem extremely confident in your view of the DPRK for someone who has done no research whatsoever. If you haven’t, then make it a point to learn. The Black Panther Party were such big fans of the DPRK that after visiting they adopted Juche into their practice. Again, I have my own criticisms, but it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who hasn’t done any research and doesn’t seem to be interested in sources I bring to the table either.
Kim is the leader of the regime. Your argument sounds like capitalists who say “billionaires aren’t that wealthy, since their assets aren’t liquid.” Economic control is worth a hell of a lot more than currency.
You say that there is little economic stratification, but where were the deaths occuring during the famines of the 90s? How many of the Kims succumbed to starvation?
Yes, the US controls information and puts out propaganda as an imperialist regime. Controlling information is still a means of oppression, even when done by North Korea.
And again, the labor is “organized” by the regime. It’s shocking to me that you find this controversial. This arrangement would be akin to having a union managed by HR in a capitalist structure: a cover to control labor.
The website of the Korean Friendship Association states that “(The GFTUK) conducts ideological education to ensure its members fully understand the Juche idea and gets them to take part in socialist construction and the management of the socialist economy with the attitude befitting masters. It has its organizations in different branches of industry.” However, the North Korea Handbook states that the GFTUK is not designed to serve its members but the WPK. GFTUK is directly controlled by the Central Committee of the WPK.
Are you saying that the Kim regime doesn’t control the WPK?
Kim Jong-Un is the head of the WPK, the main (but not only) political party in the DPRK. If my argument sounds like “billionaires aren’t wealthy because they don’t have much liquid,” then you need to study Marxist economics more. Kim Jong-Un isn’t performing an M-C…P…C’-M’ circuit, production in the DPRK isn’t funneled to him. They have a planned economy.
Secondly, most of the starvation happened in the rural areas, which were even more underdeveloped. One of Kim Jong-Un’s major campaign goals is to bring the rural development more in line with the urban development. Social stratification exists in all socialist states, the USSR for example had a difference of about 10 times from the top to the bottom on average, but in capitalist systems this number is in the hundreds to millions to even billions. Equality is not the goal of Marxism, satisfying the needs of everyone and planning production more coherently is the goal.
As for labor organizing, yes, it’s done by the WPK. Marxism has no basis in pushing for labor organizing outside the state, in a centrally planned economy this kind of organization leads to some areas having undue privledge. This was found early on in the USSR, that’s why the Soviet system took over the factory committee style that was more localized and worked against the broader planned economy.
Again, I have my criticisms, but the DPRK should he able to chart their own course. I think you should read up on Marxism a bit more, without a firm analysis of capitalism it can be difficult to understand why public ownership and planning is so different from private ownership and markets. Not saying you need to read Capital yet, but just some good research at first.
It’s evident to me that this is not the case so long as the Kim regime is in charge.
My biggest disagreement is that we don’t really know what kind of wealth the regime controls; they aren’t exactly forthcoming with that information. From the outside though, they resemble the economic distribution of many other dictatorships propped up as client states by empires.
This was a pleasant conversation though; a nice break from telling fascists to get fucked.
I think you should use this as an opportunity to get to learn the political structure of the DPRK a bit more. The Kims are beloved, but not all-powerful, the WPK isn’t even the only party in government, but a coalition.
The economic strarification in the DPRK is among the lowest in the world. The DPRK is not a wealthy country, nor is the Kim family excessively wealthy. They have privledges above and beyond the average person, no doubt, but the function of the DPRK’s economy fundamentally cannot reach the same levels of stratification that capitalist economies do. The DPRK is not really a market economy, it doesn’t really engage in traditional commodity production outside of Rason and other areas, and because of that rhere aren’t these extreme profits to give to the Kim family even if they wanted to.
You also keep repeating the idea that there’s very little democratic input, but that just isn’t the case. The system requires worker input to function, it isn’t a capitalist economy that can rely on markets to sort distribution. There’s money, for sure, and some limited private property, but fundamentally the system cannot exist without those running society being able to have a say. The Kim family couldn’t possibly run everything by themselves even if they wanted to. Labor is collectively organized, society-wide.
As far as control of information is concerned, that’s a very standard measure proposed by Marx in the manifesto itself, it’s very easy for outside influences to overwhelm the information sphere for their own gain. The US has been known to do that, especially with tools like Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Asia, etc. Defectors were far more common in the past, during the Arduous March when the Soviet Union dissolved and natural disasters led to famine. There are even defectors that risk their lives going back to the DPRK.
All in all, you seem extremely confident in your view of the DPRK for someone who has done no research whatsoever. If you haven’t, then make it a point to learn. The Black Panther Party were such big fans of the DPRK that after visiting they adopted Juche into their practice. Again, I have my own criticisms, but it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who hasn’t done any research and doesn’t seem to be interested in sources I bring to the table either.
Kim is the leader of the regime. Your argument sounds like capitalists who say “billionaires aren’t that wealthy, since their assets aren’t liquid.” Economic control is worth a hell of a lot more than currency.
You say that there is little economic stratification, but where were the deaths occuring during the famines of the 90s? How many of the Kims succumbed to starvation?
Yes, the US controls information and puts out propaganda as an imperialist regime. Controlling information is still a means of oppression, even when done by North Korea.
And again, the labor is “organized” by the regime. It’s shocking to me that you find this controversial. This arrangement would be akin to having a union managed by HR in a capitalist structure: a cover to control labor.
Are you saying that the Kim regime doesn’t control the WPK?
Kim Jong-Un is the head of the WPK, the main (but not only) political party in the DPRK. If my argument sounds like “billionaires aren’t wealthy because they don’t have much liquid,” then you need to study Marxist economics more. Kim Jong-Un isn’t performing an M-C…P…C’-M’ circuit, production in the DPRK isn’t funneled to him. They have a planned economy.
Secondly, most of the starvation happened in the rural areas, which were even more underdeveloped. One of Kim Jong-Un’s major campaign goals is to bring the rural development more in line with the urban development. Social stratification exists in all socialist states, the USSR for example had a difference of about 10 times from the top to the bottom on average, but in capitalist systems this number is in the hundreds to millions to even billions. Equality is not the goal of Marxism, satisfying the needs of everyone and planning production more coherently is the goal.
As for labor organizing, yes, it’s done by the WPK. Marxism has no basis in pushing for labor organizing outside the state, in a centrally planned economy this kind of organization leads to some areas having undue privledge. This was found early on in the USSR, that’s why the Soviet system took over the factory committee style that was more localized and worked against the broader planned economy.
Again, I have my criticisms, but the DPRK should he able to chart their own course. I think you should read up on Marxism a bit more, without a firm analysis of capitalism it can be difficult to understand why public ownership and planning is so different from private ownership and markets. Not saying you need to read Capital yet, but just some good research at first.
I largely agree with this.
My biggest point of agreement is that:
It’s evident to me that this is not the case so long as the Kim regime is in charge.
My biggest disagreement is that we don’t really know what kind of wealth the regime controls; they aren’t exactly forthcoming with that information. From the outside though, they resemble the economic distribution of many other dictatorships propped up as client states by empires.
This was a pleasant conversation though; a nice break from telling fascists to get fucked.
I think you should use this as an opportunity to get to learn the political structure of the DPRK a bit more. The Kims are beloved, but not all-powerful, the WPK isn’t even the only party in government, but a coalition.
But, take care!