Just saying - if the elections are rigged, polls can also be rigged. And again, just because others are bad doesn’t make Russia good. That’s basic whataboutism.
“What about Ukraine”?
They also suck. Moving on.
What you say is interesting, and thought provoking, but there’s not much substance beyond your claims. The only thing you actually corrected me on is when Putin became president. And idk man, but 20 years as president isnt much less dictator-y than 30 years as president.
And if Russia was leeched by US oligarchs - which obviously it was - what makes you think that didn’t have an effect on Russian politics?
Also, which facts did I “conveniently ignore”? I directly addressed the fact that far right politics are endemic in Europe. It just doesn’t stop Russia from also being far right.
Also, I’d like you to expand on the “cherry picking LGBT which is a fail”. Are you saying this isn’t a big deal or something?
“polls can also be rigged”
Suuure, every poll even the ones done by opposition organisations or even a ukranian one showing 87% for Putin are rigged.
Listen to yourself.
And it’s you with the “claims” I have irrefutable facts. Nothing but substance.
Are you an AI? I challenge you to debunk even one, you will fail again.
“And if Russia was leeched by US oligarchs - which obviously it was - what makes you think that didn’t have an effect on Russian politics?”
What makes you think I said anything like that? The result is obviously Putin, a nationalistic right-wing guy. Not another puppet, and he made life better for most Russians.
You ignored to adress the worse and more right wing states and called the lesser one fascist.
LGBT is one of countless issues, no more no less.
You know who uses the same tactics?
The hasbara trolls saying “let us genocide Palestinians bcs they don’t like the gays while we are a perfect democracy and have a pride”
I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.
Just to make sure: you do realise that criticism of Russia does not equate to praise for Western democracies?
“I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.”
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don’t like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don’t know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I’m willing to admit that much or even all I’ve heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don’t think the “Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun” narrative is accurate. However, I don’t see any convincing alternatives to that. The “denazification” idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn’t seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there’s obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I’m just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia’s actions.
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada? The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra. Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
Why bizarrely?
It has never been different, the western media doesn’t report inconvenient facts that don’t fit the narrative of the evil dictator.
People should be more sceptical and research stuff.
It just seems absurd to me that so many people in such a populous country are so uniformly super-conservative. The equivalent in the US, Trump, doesn’t even have such a super majority despite amazingly effective propaganda.
Sure, maybe Russian culture is just super conservative to begin with, but that seems odd considering how the USSR was able to even form and still enjoy fond memories among those who lived through it. Though, to be fair, the USSR was far from the most progressive state, and had its own conservative flavour, most notably an intolerance for homosexuality.
Russians credit Putin for taking them out of the absolute nightmare of 90’s (somewhat correctly) and for resisting the west (also somewhat correctly). Because you are right, Russians are not stupid sheep, they do know that west is reponsible and having the choice between nationalist like Putin and nazi western puppets like Navalny they chosen the former.
"It just seems absurd to me that so many people in such a populous country are so uniformly super-conservative. "
I think you might be young and inexperienced in (geo)politics.
Otherwise you would know that people tend to rally around the flag and support strong leaders in times of trouble.
despite not being a fan of their usual politics.
US presidents not sure of getting re-elected can just start a war and their approval goes up astronomically.
In Russia I believe the communist party scores in the high 30%, the biggest opposition.
Not exactly conservative.
I think you are also misinformed about the USSR, they were progressive in many ways.
It had more rights for minorities decades before the west, and many black Americans prefered to live there after being discriminated in their own country.
Also consider the times when talking about LGBTQ rights.
Nowhere in the world did they get treated right despite being officially decriminalised.
Which was the case (for a period) even before Stalin in the USSR, while the US did it in…2003.
Plenty of other aspects, such as women’s rights, workers rights were vastly more progressive than anywhere in the west. Swiss women didn’t gain the right to vote until 1971
Again you’re focussing on LGBTQ while they were also wrong just like most other countries decades ago is unfair.
Yeah, you’re a bit late to the party of telling me that it’s all about defending the country. “Young and inexperienced in geopolitics” is also a bit of an assumption and just a character assessment rather than a response to my point. It’s a bit hard to look past what is essentially an insult and a dismissal.
Also, you spend a lot of time explaining that the USSR was just like everyone else in their lack of LGBT acceptance. Yes, I know. Conservative. Like I said. And obviously they were ahead in terms of worker’s rights. Socialism, yknow? I never stated that the USSR was entirely conservative, just that they had some conservative elements, and used LGBT non-acceptance as an example of that conservatism.
This is starting to devolve into nothing more than a fight, and it’s stressing me out, so I’d rather not continue and just accept that you were right about their acceptance of Putin.
Just saying - if the elections are rigged, polls can also be rigged. And again, just because others are bad doesn’t make Russia good. That’s basic whataboutism.
“What about Ukraine”?
They also suck. Moving on.
What you say is interesting, and thought provoking, but there’s not much substance beyond your claims. The only thing you actually corrected me on is when Putin became president. And idk man, but 20 years as president isnt much less dictator-y than 30 years as president.
And if Russia was leeched by US oligarchs - which obviously it was - what makes you think that didn’t have an effect on Russian politics?
Also, which facts did I “conveniently ignore”? I directly addressed the fact that far right politics are endemic in Europe. It just doesn’t stop Russia from also being far right.
Also, I’d like you to expand on the “cherry picking LGBT which is a fail”. Are you saying this isn’t a big deal or something?
“polls can also be rigged” Suuure, every poll even the ones done by opposition organisations or even a ukranian one showing 87% for Putin are rigged.
Listen to yourself.
And it’s you with the “claims” I have irrefutable facts. Nothing but substance.
Are you an AI? I challenge you to debunk even one, you will fail again.
“And if Russia was leeched by US oligarchs - which obviously it was - what makes you think that didn’t have an effect on Russian politics?”
What makes you think I said anything like that? The result is obviously Putin, a nationalistic right-wing guy. Not another puppet, and he made life better for most Russians.
You ignored to adress the worse and more right wing states and called the lesser one fascist.
LGBT is one of countless issues, no more no less.
You know who uses the same tactics?
The hasbara trolls saying “let us genocide Palestinians bcs they don’t like the gays while we are a perfect democracy and have a pride”
I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.
Just to make sure: you do realise that criticism of Russia does not equate to praise for Western democracies?
“I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.”
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don’t like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don’t know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I’m willing to admit that much or even all I’ve heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don’t think the “Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun” narrative is accurate. However, I don’t see any convincing alternatives to that. The “denazification” idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn’t seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there’s obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I’m just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia’s actions.
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada?
The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra.
Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
And those efforts kept going leading to the coup.
Always ready to answer questions.
Have a nice day.
Things would have gone much more smoothly if you’d just posted this:
https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/
I looked it up myself, and bizarrely, they do seem to like him according to the polls.
Why bizarrely?
It has never been different, the western media doesn’t report inconvenient facts that don’t fit the narrative of the evil dictator.
People should be more sceptical and research stuff.
It just seems absurd to me that so many people in such a populous country are so uniformly super-conservative. The equivalent in the US, Trump, doesn’t even have such a super majority despite amazingly effective propaganda.
Sure, maybe Russian culture is just super conservative to begin with, but that seems odd considering how the USSR was able to even form and still enjoy fond memories among those who lived through it. Though, to be fair, the USSR was far from the most progressive state, and had its own conservative flavour, most notably an intolerance for homosexuality.
Russians credit Putin for taking them out of the absolute nightmare of 90’s (somewhat correctly) and for resisting the west (also somewhat correctly). Because you are right, Russians are not stupid sheep, they do know that west is reponsible and having the choice between nationalist like Putin and nazi western puppets like Navalny they chosen the former.
When you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for having the patience to put up with my ignorance.
"It just seems absurd to me that so many people in such a populous country are so uniformly super-conservative. "
I think you might be young and inexperienced in (geo)politics.
Otherwise you would know that people tend to rally around the flag and support strong leaders in times of trouble.
despite not being a fan of their usual politics.
US presidents not sure of getting re-elected can just start a war and their approval goes up astronomically.
In Russia I believe the communist party scores in the high 30%, the biggest opposition.
Not exactly conservative.
I think you are also misinformed about the USSR, they were progressive in many ways.
It had more rights for minorities decades before the west, and many black Americans prefered to live there after being discriminated in their own country.
Also consider the times when talking about LGBTQ rights.
Nowhere in the world did they get treated right despite being officially decriminalised.
Which was the case (for a period) even before Stalin in the USSR, while the US did it in…2003.
Plenty of other aspects, such as women’s rights, workers rights were vastly more progressive than anywhere in the west. Swiss women didn’t gain the right to vote until 1971
Again you’re focussing on LGBTQ while they were also wrong just like most other countries decades ago is unfair.
Yeah, you’re a bit late to the party of telling me that it’s all about defending the country. “Young and inexperienced in geopolitics” is also a bit of an assumption and just a character assessment rather than a response to my point. It’s a bit hard to look past what is essentially an insult and a dismissal.
Also, you spend a lot of time explaining that the USSR was just like everyone else in their lack of LGBT acceptance. Yes, I know. Conservative. Like I said. And obviously they were ahead in terms of worker’s rights. Socialism, yknow? I never stated that the USSR was entirely conservative, just that they had some conservative elements, and used LGBT non-acceptance as an example of that conservatism.
This is starting to devolve into nothing more than a fight, and it’s stressing me out, so I’d rather not continue and just accept that you were right about their acceptance of Putin.