You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada? The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra. Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada?
The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra.
Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
And those efforts kept going leading to the coup.
Always ready to answer questions.
Have a nice day.