They’re the same. If I gave you two molecules of C6H8O6 there is no way you could tell me how they were made and if one was “natural”. Your body certainly wouldn’t care either way.
This is only true in an extremely reductionist sense.
Bio availability, matrix of compounding nutritional elements, and many other factors that influence digestion, such as fiber, all change what happens when you consume those molecules.
One good corollary is how the body needs fats to turn beta carotene into vitamin A. You combine foods for complete nutrition.
I understand, but the article and paper clearly state that may not be the case.
Despite food additive ascorbic acid and alpha-tocopherol having identical structures to their naturally occurring forms,[3]() their effects can differ based on factors such as food matrix (composition, structure, etc.), dosage, and interactions with other food compounds affecting bioavailability.[52]()
their effects can differ based on factors such as food matrix (composition, structure, etc.), dosage, and interactions with other food compounds affecting bioavailability.
That sentence literally says that there is no difference in the origin of the vitamin C and that the differences they’re seeing are due to the food it is in (and potential interactions of Vitamin C with those foods). That has zero to do with whether the Vit. C is “natural” or not.
The shit article probably took her quotes out of context and/or misunderstood them.
Then riddle me this - how do two identical things have different effects?
You can read that in the paper. I really don’t see why this is such a difficult concept for you.
You had a nice null hypothesis based on your assumptions. Then new evidence comes along that shows it’s all not that black and white. The scientific way is to reject your null hypothesis and adjust your hypothesis based on the findings. Not the other way around like you’re doing. And especially not going: “riddle me this” like a MAGA / TPUSA bad faith debater.
The fact that you can’t figure it out also doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
Nobody said that if you manage to extract the vitamin C in an orange and replaced it with manufactured vitamin C there would be a chemical difference. There is however, a difference in effect on the human body, as clearly stated in my initial comment as in the study.
You can read that in the paper. I really don’t see why this is such a difficult concept for you.
Because it would undermine a tenet of chemistry that the behavior of a molecule depends on its composition rather than “how” that molecule was created?
Like - if I said “H20 behaves differently when it’s created naturally vs when it’s created in a lab” you’d say I’m nuts right?
That’s because your way of thinking is too simplistic.
Yes a chemical can behave differently in one environment – i.e. with a certain set of molecules surrounding it – than it does in another, even H2O.
Now put a molecule with two different environments into the most complex chemical factory known to man – i.e. a mammalian body – toss things like bioavailability, the gut microbiome and the first-pass effect into the mix and results can be very different indeed, as shown by the paper.
Then there are all kinds of other effects going on in the human body, like osmotic pressure that moves H2O across cell membranes, that can cause brain cells to swell (cerebral edema), which causes mechanical compression of the brain stem to the skull base, which can cause the simple H2O in your example to kill someone if they drink too much of it in a short amount of time.
There is also a question of yield in various processes. One process could readily yield 99% ascorbic acid with 1% rapid and unmitigable death.
You have a lot of patience Photonic, to be willing to fight team science on scientifocity, especially since we all know it’s really tiny elves which make some foods good to eat and others poisonous, and not, say, the effect of preservatives on gut microbiome.
I feel more like I’m fighting team “I read a thing once and am now going to bash someone just trying to make a small side note while not having read the article or paper” and not team “science”.
And yet the paper supports my argument. That the article is shit.
Despite food additive ascorbic acid and alpha-tocopherol having identical structures to their naturally occurring forms,their effects can differ based on factors such as food matrix (composition, structure, etc.), dosage, and interactions with other food compounds affecting bioavailability.
There’s nothing about the ascorbic acid’s “naturalness” in how it came to be that is in question. It’s in how it interacts with other things in the foods to which it is added.
It’s not “natural” vs. “evil lab-created” vitamin C.
I specifically and only talked about the manufactured and naturally occurring form
Which are chemically identical… Which the paper says as well. Yes? Did I misread that? Are they saying there are differences in the chemical composition?
I believe in this situation, the molecules are not identical.
The synthetic is slightly different.
Sort of how sugar from fruits and refined sugar are both sugar but the difference between them is enough to cause health problems with the refined one.
Like it is processed by the body slightly differently. Or binds to other things in the body differently?
Idk. I’m not a bio chemist.
I’m also pretty sure the reason refined sugar is more bad for you than fruit sugar is also the sheer quantity.
An apple isnt 1/4 sugar. But a can of soda is.
So humans aren’t really designed to gorge on that much sugar in such short periods of time.
Again. Not a biologist nor chemist nor medical doctor. So I may have some info wrong but that’s my basic understanding.
What I do know though from a pharmacology class I took many years ago is that technically everything is poison.
Even water can kill you if you drink too much in a given time period.
It’s all about quantity.
Too much of anything is gonna cause you some problems.
That’s why you always have to look at the quantities in these types of studies. Because are they giving people average consumption amounts or 200 or 500% more?
I’m also pretty sure the reason refined sugar is more bad for you than fruit sugar is also the sheer quantity.
I’m gonna concentrate on this bit right here because it’s sooo common in most people’s misunderstanding of food. Especially WRT “high fructose corn syrup”. Because that difference in quantity is a real problem - but it has nothing to do with the type or quality of sugar itself.
They’re the same. If I gave you two molecules of C6H8O6 there is no way you could tell me how they were made and if one was “natural”. Your body certainly wouldn’t care either way.
This is only true in an extremely reductionist sense.
Bio availability, matrix of compounding nutritional elements, and many other factors that influence digestion, such as fiber, all change what happens when you consume those molecules.
One good corollary is how the body needs fats to turn beta carotene into vitamin A. You combine foods for complete nutrition.
Yes. I agree completely. That’s nowhere near what I’m arguing against.
None of that depends on how the vit c was created. None.
I understand, but the article and paper clearly state that may not be the case.
That sentence literally says that there is no difference in the origin of the vitamin C and that the differences they’re seeing are due to the food it is in (and potential interactions of Vitamin C with those foods). That has zero to do with whether the Vit. C is “natural” or not.
The shit article probably took her quotes out of context and/or misunderstood them.
It definitely says there’s a difference in origin. They say there’s no difference in chemical composition.
I also never said there was a chemical difference between the two, I just talked about the effects. Just like the manuscript.
I worded that poorly - I meant “due to origin”.
Then riddle me this - how do two identical things have different effects?
The paper says it’s not due to the origin of the chemical but due to interactions with other things in the food to which it was introduced.
It does not matter if the Vit. C was created in a lab, in a fruit, or divinely produced by God.
You can read that in the paper. I really don’t see why this is such a difficult concept for you.
You had a nice null hypothesis based on your assumptions. Then new evidence comes along that shows it’s all not that black and white. The scientific way is to reject your null hypothesis and adjust your hypothesis based on the findings. Not the other way around like you’re doing. And especially not going: “riddle me this” like a MAGA / TPUSA bad faith debater.
The fact that you can’t figure it out also doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
Nobody said that if you manage to extract the vitamin C in an orange and replaced it with manufactured vitamin C there would be a chemical difference. There is however, a difference in effect on the human body, as clearly stated in my initial comment as in the study.
Because it would undermine a tenet of chemistry that the behavior of a molecule depends on its composition rather than “how” that molecule was created?
Like - if I said “H20 behaves differently when it’s created naturally vs when it’s created in a lab” you’d say I’m nuts right?
That’s because your way of thinking is too simplistic.
Yes a chemical can behave differently in one environment – i.e. with a certain set of molecules surrounding it – than it does in another, even H2O.
Now put a molecule with two different environments into the most complex chemical factory known to man – i.e. a mammalian body – toss things like bioavailability, the gut microbiome and the first-pass effect into the mix and results can be very different indeed, as shown by the paper.
Then there are all kinds of other effects going on in the human body, like osmotic pressure that moves H2O across cell membranes, that can cause brain cells to swell (cerebral edema), which causes mechanical compression of the brain stem to the skull base, which can cause the simple H2O in your example to kill someone if they drink too much of it in a short amount of time.
There is also a question of yield in various processes. One process could readily yield 99% ascorbic acid with 1% rapid and unmitigable death.
You have a lot of patience Photonic, to be willing to fight team science on scientifocity, especially since we all know it’s really tiny elves which make some foods good to eat and others poisonous, and not, say, the effect of preservatives on gut microbiome.
I feel more like I’m fighting team “I read a thing once and am now going to bash someone just trying to make a small side note while not having read the article or paper” and not team “science”.
“Team science” does not say “natural vitamin C is better than chemically created vitamin C”. 🤣
That’s the shit you get from pop science in a book sold on daytime television.
Can’t help it if you can’t read…
You’re just doubling down and dying on a hill here lol.
I’m still going to go with the scientist who wrote the paper and not some random commenter on an internet forum. Thanks!
And yet the paper supports my argument. That the article is shit.
There’s nothing about the ascorbic acid’s “naturalness” in how it came to be that is in question. It’s in how it interacts with other things in the foods to which it is added.
It’s not “natural” vs. “evil lab-created” vitamin C.
Yet the paper specifically mentions:
Vs
And can you stop talking about “evil-lab chemicals” like I’m some sort of paleo diet moron.
You’re trying to argue that I said there’s a chemical difference. You can try to quote me on that if you want.
I specifically and only talked about the manufactured and naturally occurring form and its effects on the human body.
Exactly like the paper does.
Which are chemically identical… Which the paper says as well. Yes? Did I misread that? Are they saying there are differences in the chemical composition?
Team science of Lemmy is team, “I vaguely remember grade 11 chemistry”.
Your understanding of pharmacology is sophomoric. Maybe a little less confidence and a little more education would benefit you.
Enlighten me then sensei. What is the difference between two chemically identical molecules created through different processes?
I believe in this situation, the molecules are not identical. The synthetic is slightly different.
Sort of how sugar from fruits and refined sugar are both sugar but the difference between them is enough to cause health problems with the refined one.
Like it is processed by the body slightly differently. Or binds to other things in the body differently?
Idk. I’m not a bio chemist.
I’m also pretty sure the reason refined sugar is more bad for you than fruit sugar is also the sheer quantity.
An apple isnt 1/4 sugar. But a can of soda is.
So humans aren’t really designed to gorge on that much sugar in such short periods of time.
Again. Not a biologist nor chemist nor medical doctor. So I may have some info wrong but that’s my basic understanding.
What I do know though from a pharmacology class I took many years ago is that technically everything is poison.
Even water can kill you if you drink too much in a given time period.
It’s all about quantity.
Too much of anything is gonna cause you some problems.
That’s why you always have to look at the quantities in these types of studies. Because are they giving people average consumption amounts or 200 or 500% more?
I’m gonna concentrate on this bit right here because it’s sooo common in most people’s misunderstanding of food. Especially WRT “high fructose corn syrup”. Because that difference in quantity is a real problem - but it has nothing to do with the type or quality of sugar itself.