I definetly want socialism. But that shit on the left is nothing, but corporate feel-good green capitalism, not worker’s control over the means of production.
No, the fantasy is that you’re magically going to end up in a worker ownership utopia going from the current capitalist relations. It’s incredible that somebody could be so infantile as to think there wouldn’t be some sort of a transition period after the working class takes power and has to fight against the dominant capitalist empire that tries to extinguish every socialist project. Try to put at least a bit of effort into your trolling not to make it so transparent.
No, the fantasy is that you’re magically going to end up in a worker ownership utopia going from the current capitalist relations.
You’re jumping to conclusions. I never told you how I think the transition to socialism is supposed to ocmur, yet you claim that I think it will “magically” happen. You’re fighting strawmen.
It’s incredible that somebody could be so infantile as to think there wouldn’t be some sort of a transition period after the working class takes power and has to fight against the dominant capitalist empire that tries to extinguish every socialist project.
Good thing I believe that a transitional period is necessary, then. Yet you seem to believe that there is only one correct way to enact that transitional period, which I find incredibly naive. Pretty much as naive as trying to negate means-ends unity. Especially since there have been multiple examples of socialism-aligned projects that don’t follow the ML/MLM-model.
Also, there’s nothing magical about prefiguration, either.
Try to put at least a bit of effort into your trolling not to make it so transparent.
I want to come back to my original point: the picture on the left is nothing but eco-virtue signaling and completely compatible with bourgeois ideology. So nothing new for the so-called PRC.
You told me you reject existing socialist projects, and we have not seen any viable alternative demonstrated in over a century. So, yes, you very clearly are suggesting a magical alternative here.
And no, I don’t believe there is one correct way to enact a transitional period. This is just a straw man you’re making to avoid engaging with what’s being said to you. What I believe is that there is one DEMONSTRATED way to do this, and that nobody has shown a viable alternative. If there was a workable alternative then we could discuss it. It does not exist.
You want to come back to your original point of rejecting real working socialism that’s tangibly improving people’s lives in China in favor of some mythical idea that you’re evidently unable to articulate. Go troll elsewhere.
You told me you reject existing socialist projects
Not all of them. Just the state-capitalist ones which claim to be socialist. Do you condone everything done in the name of socialism? Because that’s not possible with a coherent worldview. You’d have to both condone the Kronstadt rebellion, as well as it’s crushing. (Even if you claim that Kronstadt was a ploy of the whites: the official reasoning was a socialist one)
and we have not seen any viable alternative demonstrated in over a century.
That’s not true. Anarchist Catalonia was less than 100 years ago. Rojava and the Zapatistas still exist as well.
And no, I don’t believe there is one correct way to enact a transitional period.
Then why do you reject critique of the chinese government with the claim that it must be necessary?
What I believe is that there is one DEMONSTRATED way to do this, and that nobody has shown a viable alternative. If there was a workable alternative then we could discuss it. It does not exist.
The only reason you claim that is because you ignore every non-Leninist/Maoist project and also ignore all the states where ML/MLMism failed. Why is the soviet union supposedly viable, but anarchist catalonia isn’t. The success rate of Marxism-Leninism and it’s offshoots is less that 10%.
You want to come back to your original point of rejecting real working socialism that’s tangibly improving people’s lives in China in favor of some mythical idea that you’re evidently unable to articulate. Go troll elsewhere.
No. I’ve stated my original point several times: the images on the left are eco-virtue signaling, which can be found in capitalist states. If you wanted to show how the PRC improved the lives of its’ denizens (which I don’t even disagree with - but so has Sweden), you’ve chosen bad examples.
If you want to see green LEDs in subway stations, you don’t have to go to China. The thing you’ve posted is existing in bourgeois states. You’ve failed to show how “actual existing socialism” is improving one’s life. If given these two options (green LEDs vs. concrete hell), I’ll take neither.
Maybe I lack context. If you think I’m wrong, you could focus on my original critique (before you defended China against phantom attacks) and explain what I’m seeing on the left. But I guess that any example you give will have an equivalent in an openly capitalist state.
Not all of them. Just the state-capitalist ones which claim to be socialist. Do you condone everything done in the name of socialism? Because that’s not possible with a coherent worldview. You’d have to both condone the Kronstadt rebellion, as well as it’s crushing. (Even if you claim that Kronstadt was a ploy of the whites: the official reasoning was a socialist one)
You’re just doing sophistry here. The whole idea of state capitalism is a bit of a misnomer. It basically says that while you have state owned enterprise, the internal capitalist relations within it remain largely the same. While that’s true, there is a fundamental difference here. Capitalism is a system where people who own capital hire workers to exploit there labor with the purpose of increasing their capital. The goal of capitalist enterprise is to create wealth for the owners with any social benefits being strictly incidental. On the other hand, the purpose of state enterprise is to provide social value. Workers in state owned companies are producing things that the society needs. They are working for their own benefit and those of others around them. Therefore, the nature of work itself is fundamentally different from actual capitalism. And it’s very obviously a huge step forward from capitalism.
What I condone is improving people’s lives and moving towards a communist society. This is what existing socialist projects like China, Cuba, DPRK, and Vietnam are currently doing while people like you bloviate endlessly living under the boot of capital.
That’s not true. Anarchist Catalonia was less than 100 years ago. Rojava and the Zapatistas still exist as well.
Also, there’s a materialist reason, why so many countries imitate the Bolsheviki.
Kinda of hilarious to point to a video from somebody who doesn’t even understand what a dictatorship actually is. Really not helping your case there. Having a single party simply means that the society as a whole agreed on a single collective vision. There can be plenty of debate within the framework of a party on how to actually implement this vision. Meanwhile, any class society will be a dictatorship of the class that holds power. Given that socialist society would arise from an existing capitalist society, it would necessarily inherit existing class relationships. What changes is which class holds power. That’s the difference between the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Finally, the notion of dictatorship in a sense of a single person running things is infantile beyond belief. People who peddle this notion are the ones who should truly be ashamed of themselves. As Anna Louise Strong puts it in This Soviet World:
Then why do you reject critique of the chinese government with the claim that it must be necessary?
I reject the critique of the Chinese government because it’s baseless. What I said is that I don’t believe there’s one specific way to enact the transitional period. But it’s very clear that there ARE proven ways to do so. The Chinese way is one that has proven itself to work. People claiming they can do better have to demonstrate how that works. And not by showing us failed experiments that are in the dust of history.
The only reason you claim that is because you ignore every non-Leninist/Maoist project and also ignore all the states where ML/MLMism failed. Why is the soviet union supposedly viable, but anarchist catalonia isn’t. The success rate of Marxism-Leninism and it’s offshoots is less that 10%.
You’re right, I ignore fantasies and past failures. A rational person is able to look at the results and decide whether approach works or not based on that.
No. I’ve stated my original point several times: the images on the left are eco-virtue signaling, which can be found in capitalist states. If you wanted to show how the PRC improved the lives of its’ denizens (which I don’t even disagree with - but so has Sweden), you’ve chosen bad examples.
They’re not. China is literally at the forefront of clean energy, mass reforestation, and desert greening. The images very much embody what PRC is actually doing. Enjoy doing your preaching while ignoring actual human progress I guess.
I’m just gonna ignore your campist gish-gallopping if you don’t even bother to skim the video. You’re not interested in engaging in critique that contradicts your worldview. Just like people in a cult would do.
The images very much embody what PRC is actually doing.
You still failed to explain what we’re actually seeing on the left. It’s visually indistinguishable from green capitalism, so you failed in using a picture to promote whatever the PRC is doing.
TIL tha green LEDs will safe the environment. /s
Edit:
Lol, you posted the first thing you found when you googled Zapatista dissolution, didn’t you? The Zapatistas restructured their autonomous approach. They didn’t abandon autonomy. They still exist, therefore they didn’t fail.
I definetly want socialism. But that shit on the left is nothing, but corporate feel-good green capitalism, not worker’s control over the means of production.
No, you just want fantasies as opposed to actual existing socialism in the real world.
So worker’s ownership of the means of production is a “fantasy” for you? So you agree that you’re not a socialist. Cool
The bullshit on the left can all be found in western, capitalist countries. It’s nothing, but ecologic virtue signaling.
No, the fantasy is that you’re magically going to end up in a worker ownership utopia going from the current capitalist relations. It’s incredible that somebody could be so infantile as to think there wouldn’t be some sort of a transition period after the working class takes power and has to fight against the dominant capitalist empire that tries to extinguish every socialist project. Try to put at least a bit of effort into your trolling not to make it so transparent.
You’re jumping to conclusions. I never told you how I think the transition to socialism is supposed to ocmur, yet you claim that I think it will “magically” happen. You’re fighting strawmen.
Good thing I believe that a transitional period is necessary, then. Yet you seem to believe that there is only one correct way to enact that transitional period, which I find incredibly naive. Pretty much as naive as trying to negate means-ends unity. Especially since there have been multiple examples of socialism-aligned projects that don’t follow the ML/MLM-model.
Also, there’s nothing magical about prefiguration, either.
Lol. Projection much, comrade “prefiguration equals magic”?
I want to come back to my original point: the picture on the left is nothing but eco-virtue signaling and completely compatible with bourgeois ideology. So nothing new for the so-called PRC.
You told me you reject existing socialist projects, and we have not seen any viable alternative demonstrated in over a century. So, yes, you very clearly are suggesting a magical alternative here.
And no, I don’t believe there is one correct way to enact a transitional period. This is just a straw man you’re making to avoid engaging with what’s being said to you. What I believe is that there is one DEMONSTRATED way to do this, and that nobody has shown a viable alternative. If there was a workable alternative then we could discuss it. It does not exist.
You want to come back to your original point of rejecting real working socialism that’s tangibly improving people’s lives in China in favor of some mythical idea that you’re evidently unable to articulate. Go troll elsewhere.
Not all of them. Just the state-capitalist ones which claim to be socialist. Do you condone everything done in the name of socialism? Because that’s not possible with a coherent worldview. You’d have to both condone the Kronstadt rebellion, as well as it’s crushing. (Even if you claim that Kronstadt was a ploy of the whites: the official reasoning was a socialist one)
That’s not true. Anarchist Catalonia was less than 100 years ago. Rojava and the Zapatistas still exist as well.
Also, there’s a materialist reason, why so many countries imitate the Bolsheviki.
Then why do you reject critique of the chinese government with the claim that it must be necessary?
The only reason you claim that is because you ignore every non-Leninist/Maoist project and also ignore all the states where ML/MLMism failed. Why is the soviet union supposedly viable, but anarchist catalonia isn’t. The success rate of Marxism-Leninism and it’s offshoots is less that 10%.
No. I’ve stated my original point several times: the images on the left are eco-virtue signaling, which can be found in capitalist states. If you wanted to show how the PRC improved the lives of its’ denizens (which I don’t even disagree with - but so has Sweden), you’ve chosen bad examples.
If you want to see green LEDs in subway stations, you don’t have to go to China. The thing you’ve posted is existing in bourgeois states. You’ve failed to show how “actual existing socialism” is improving one’s life. If given these two options (green LEDs vs. concrete hell), I’ll take neither.
Maybe I lack context. If you think I’m wrong, you could focus on my original critique (before you defended China against phantom attacks) and explain what I’m seeing on the left. But I guess that any example you give will have an equivalent in an openly capitalist state.
You’re just doing sophistry here. The whole idea of state capitalism is a bit of a misnomer. It basically says that while you have state owned enterprise, the internal capitalist relations within it remain largely the same. While that’s true, there is a fundamental difference here. Capitalism is a system where people who own capital hire workers to exploit there labor with the purpose of increasing their capital. The goal of capitalist enterprise is to create wealth for the owners with any social benefits being strictly incidental. On the other hand, the purpose of state enterprise is to provide social value. Workers in state owned companies are producing things that the society needs. They are working for their own benefit and those of others around them. Therefore, the nature of work itself is fundamentally different from actual capitalism. And it’s very obviously a huge step forward from capitalism.
What I condone is improving people’s lives and moving towards a communist society. This is what existing socialist projects like China, Cuba, DPRK, and Vietnam are currently doing while people like you bloviate endlessly living under the boot of capital.
The point is that these projects don’t survive and they don’t scale. This is what inevitably happens to these approaches https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/zapatistas-declare-dissolution-of-autonomous-communities-in-chiapas/
Kinda of hilarious to point to a video from somebody who doesn’t even understand what a dictatorship actually is. Really not helping your case there. Having a single party simply means that the society as a whole agreed on a single collective vision. There can be plenty of debate within the framework of a party on how to actually implement this vision. Meanwhile, any class society will be a dictatorship of the class that holds power. Given that socialist society would arise from an existing capitalist society, it would necessarily inherit existing class relationships. What changes is which class holds power. That’s the difference between the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Finally, the notion of dictatorship in a sense of a single person running things is infantile beyond belief. People who peddle this notion are the ones who should truly be ashamed of themselves. As Anna Louise Strong puts it in This Soviet World:
I reject the critique of the Chinese government because it’s baseless. What I said is that I don’t believe there’s one specific way to enact the transitional period. But it’s very clear that there ARE proven ways to do so. The Chinese way is one that has proven itself to work. People claiming they can do better have to demonstrate how that works. And not by showing us failed experiments that are in the dust of history.
You’re right, I ignore fantasies and past failures. A rational person is able to look at the results and decide whether approach works or not based on that.
They’re not. China is literally at the forefront of clean energy, mass reforestation, and desert greening. The images very much embody what PRC is actually doing. Enjoy doing your preaching while ignoring actual human progress I guess.
I’m just gonna ignore your campist gish-gallopping if you don’t even bother to skim the video. You’re not interested in engaging in critique that contradicts your worldview. Just like people in a cult would do.
You still failed to explain what we’re actually seeing on the left. It’s visually indistinguishable from green capitalism, so you failed in using a picture to promote whatever the PRC is doing.
TIL tha green LEDs will safe the environment. /s
Edit: Lol, you posted the first thing you found when you googled Zapatista dissolution, didn’t you? The Zapatistas restructured their autonomous approach. They didn’t abandon autonomy. They still exist, therefore they didn’t fail.