United States President Donald Trump says Washington had armed Iranian opposition groups and protesters during mass antigovernment demonstrations in December and January, in which thousands of people were killed during crackdowns by government forces.
i don’t get the cope in this thread. it’s something the us does do with some regularity, and i thought you guys disliked trump’s fascism anyway.
why the desperation to vilify iran in a war you claim to not even want to fight?
Because this is one of those other cases where BOTH sides are bad. I KNOW! Who could have known that is possible, it’s unheard of!
In World War 2, the allies consisted of the following countries, among others:
Given this, would you say that BOTH sides were bad? Hopefully not. You might say that there are degrees of badness, and in some cases, as for instance in a major war, you have to choose between degrees of badness, and that the least bad side is the de-facto good side. Okay, now you’re up to speed, welcome to the world.
Uh huh?
You’re saying the obvious
Of course the allies were the “good” guys, but “good” and “bad” are not 0 and 100%, its not black and white. I remember watching this military training video from the US made for WWII soldiers sent to europe, talking about how the negro would just walk freely amongst whiteys, omg, and it is totally normal!! head explodes
There is a lot to be said about the allies back then, and there is a lot to be said about any and every country in the world. I can make that list literally for every country in this world.
So right now, for Iran vs. the US, there won’t be winners, only losers. Trump is a fucking loser and a fascist and a pedophile. The Iranian government is a theocratic dictatorship that happily murders children for protesting or maybe loving the wrong person. Both are bad, and honestly, I could not tell you who I would want to win in this case. Best case scenario we can hope for is that Iran wins (its looking like that) and that then the populace of Iran topples the regime so that they can finally start working on a democracy.
So yeah, both side are horrible here, and this particular conflict really doesn’t have any good or bad guys, they’re both horrible.
Iran’s government is quite bad on certain social issues, I won’t disagree. It isn’t a dictatorship, though. The head of government is elected and the head of state is appointed. Not a perfect democracy, but not very different from most democracies either. But I digress, because that really isn’t the main point.
If you’re equivocating them in any way you aren’t seeing the situation clearly. If Iran loses, there will be nothing left to check Israeli expansionism throughout the middle east. They will expand and drive out the Arab inhabitants out of their homes so they can create their racially pure homeland. It will be a continuous Genocide - Gaza, constantly, on a regional scale, alongside the continued American grip on the rest of the world.
On the other hand, if Iran wins, they halt Israel, stop the genocide of Palestine, and liberate the entire region from US domination. The American puppet dictatorships and absolute monarchies, much more repressive than Iran (though you never hear about it since they’re American puppets), will be left without support, and the people will actually have a chance to choose their own destiny. This will be a massive blow to the American empire, and will show the world that America can be fought and beaten.
So on one side you have the throne of fascist capital, a genocidal apartheid state, and various kleptocratic slave dictatorships, all fighting for domination. On the other, you have a semi-democratic theocratic republic, along with rag-tag resistance groups, fighting against the fascist world empire and its local cronies. Are Iran “good guys”? It’s complicated. Are they “the good guys”? Fucking unambiguously.
JFC…
Yes, Iran is a theocratic dictatorship. The government is based on Islamic law and led by religious leaders, particularly that “wonderful” Supreme Leader. The system combines elements of theocracy with authoritarian governance, limiting political freedoms and dissent, and happily tortures you for whatever reason they want.
But yeah, its not a dictatorship though, because the internet guy ™ told me so, just like he told me that if Iran wins, it will only do good things, because they are just misunderstood santa claus elves, you know! They know no wrong!
So in the real world, on the one side you have a fascist semi dictatorship with a money obsessed pedophile and on the other side you have a theocratic religion obsessed dictatorship (BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT IS) that murders people world wide and happily tortures its own citizens. Geez, who would be the good guy ™ here!??!
So how about this: Both sides are bad and best we can hope for is Iran winning and immediately being overthrown by a coup by the citizens, so that they can finally pave a path to freedom and democracy?
Being immediately overthrown after victory isn’t realistic, but I expect that without the imperial boot off their necks, they will moderate over time. Without foreign imperialists using social issues as a cudgel while actually wanting to loot and defang Iran, change, whether revolutionary or reformist, will come more easily. In either case, this will be in the hands of Iranians, not westerners.
Certainly, I would prefer if a secular socialist government were kicking America out of the middle east. I would be hooting and hollering nonstop, unable to contain my joy. But that isn’t what we’re getting, so I’ll hoot and holler at a somewhat reduced rate as a Shia Islamist government kicks America out of the middle east. Try to look on the bright side, you’ll be happier.
Of course, Iranians have to solve this themselves, but if you think that this theocracy will only stop because the west stopped meddling then I have a bridge to sell ya
Everything ends eventually
Or maybe you don’t choose the sides that are running the war (eg USA vs. Iran), but instead choose the side that is fighting it (the working class) against the side that instigated it (the global billionaires who benefit from imperialism and capitalism).
Which of the global billionaires are Iranian? You’re treating this like World War 1, which it objectively isn’t - Iran doesn’t have colonies or a global empire. Even if it was World War 1, revolutionary defeatism would still mean that you should be hoping for Iranian victory.
In fact, the Iranian and Resistance side of this war is explicitly anti-imperialist. Not just in the sense Stalin meant when he said that the Afghanistan’s struggle for independence was objectively revolutionary (in spite of the Emir being a monarchist) due to it weakening the imperialists. It’s that plus the fact that Iran is essentially an independent anti-imperialist social democracy. A religious conservative one, yes, but they have a centrally planned economy with a decent social safety net and good labour protections. The Islamists purged the socialists after the revolution, but both ideologically and for legitimacy, they maintained an economic populist program - i.e. Iran still possesses proletarian revolutionary characteristics along with all the theocratic baggage.
Thus, Iran is both waging an objectively anti-imperialist and therefore revolutionary struggle against the empire, which is to say against global capital, they are also fighting to maintain the gains of the revolution. Iran’s defeat would entail privatization and looting of its economy and immiseration of its working class, to say nothing of enabling Israeli expansionism and genocide across the region. Thus, any principled communist or socialist has the duty to support Iran’s struggle against the empire, mashallah.
That’s basically what I meant. I support the Iranian people, their war of defense, and their general stance against Western Imperialism.
That doesn’t mean I think the Iranian state are the good guys though. Some elements are doing good in the world, but it’s also a horribly repressive theocratic regime. Of course, on the list of oppressive regimes, Iran ranks far below the likes of Israel and the USA…
Honestly, comrade, I agree with you. I’m just trying to create some space for the large amount of people who would be turned away by a Stalin quote to join the left in supporting Iran’s side in this. They don’t care about the broader fight against US imperialism, but they hate how bad this war looks for America (and how expensive it is).
Fair enough. I may change the attribution to “Youssef al-Fulaadh”
The thing with moral relativism is that it puts the two subjects on the same level. But are they?
One side represses legitimate but dangerous riots with violence, the other kills schoolgirls at their desks during class hours.
I’m not putting both of them on the same level. Just saying; A rapist and a mass child murderer are both criminals, it is very okay to call both bad while not proclaiming they are equally bad. One obviously is worse than the other.
In this case, though, I’m hard press to tell you which is worse, the Iranian government or the US government. The Iranian government is a theocratic dictatorship that regularly disappears people for even dressing the wrong way, let alone protest or gasp being gay. They would love to dominate and dictate other countries and if they get their hands on a nuke, it could be really bad, though a similar claim could be made for Pakistan which now does have nukes.
The US government is a corrupt semi dictatorship that has spent the last 7 decades fucking over other countries for its own good. Ironically, Iran is the way it is now because of the US’ actions some 7 or so decades ago. They now too make people disappear, they are responsible for thousands of deaths all over the world, and with cheeto in charge, they may very well end the world.
bOtH sIdEs!
And here on the right you can see another specimen of “idiots” who still don’t get that good and bad aren’t white and black dichotomies…
by the us government’s open admission, apparently not.
and they are being fine anti imperialists lately. why vilify them at precisely this moment?
Why vilify a known pedophile who is extra judicially murdering people all over the world, while putting the entire world in turmoil?
why not? are you implying iran is also waging war with the entire rest of the planet?