Independent Persian has received messages from protestors within Iran via Starlink satellite that describe a ‘war-like situation’. Amirhossein Miresmaeili reports
I never thought I’d see Lemmy so desperately supporting a theocratic dictatorship that allows women to be stoned to death for minor “offenses” to their archaic code, but here we are.
For me it’s not so much supporting the Iranian regime but seriously doubting whether any outside interference will actually help the people. Because when has it ever done so?
For a lot of people on here, tankies especially, anyone that opposes the West is incapable of doing harm and must be defended at all costs. Human rights abuses are ignored so long as they can go “west bad”. Like, yes, the West is indeed bad. That doesn’t excuse the awful actions of the regimes that oppose them nor make it okay.
very convenient to label anyone as tankie who is against liberal zionists.
No is excusing wrong doings of the iranian govt, however we need to be real here, western regime changes have never been good and particularly how this is openly israel backed is even more problematic. Not to forget govt still has support in iran and in case of regime change it would lead to catastrophic civil war - surely that wont liberate women.
I dont support religious theocracy but we need to deal with reality, what happened to the “lesser of two evils” you liberals yap about all the time?
Yes. Supporting the government is in reality opposing Zionism. I know it’s hard logic, but bear with me.
There is no alternative to the current government of Iran that is capable of organizing the military to defend against the US and Israel.
If the current government were to fall, the military would have a two-way fight that they would need to navigate, splitting their focus and creating mass paranoia.
It would be almost impossible to tell the difference between a legit revolution and a CIA color revolution, of which we have documented evidence.
So, if you oppose Zionism you must support the Iranian government, and if you support the Iranian people overthrowing their government TODAY then you support Zionism.
But you can be smarter than that and be like the rest of us who want the Iranian people to overthrow their government and since we want that the only way we can support them is by ending the threats from Israel and the US and Britain. If we can end the threats, then the Iranian people will have the safety to manage their own affairs.
Today, they are under siege and must not lose at all costs.
I say if Iranian people want to overthrow the current system then I’m all for it, rooting for the status quo against their will “for the greater good” sounds fucked up to me. Iranian people should be the one deciding the outcome here.
It’s not possible for the people of Iran to decide the outcome. That’s what you’re ignoring. If Iran was completely disconnected from this plane of existence, sure, do it.
But Mossad is literally operating inside Iran and has been for years. During the attempted decapitation attack last year, when Israel shot missiles from fighter jets into apartments of top scientists and politicians, it was also discovered that Mossad was operating entire buildings as forward bases, with large amounts of drones, munitions, and recon capabilities.
Yes, it would be great for the people of Iran to decide, but it would require them to weaken the control and capabilities of the state, which woul guarantee Israeli and US involvement immediately.
The reason the Iranian people are not able to change their government is because they are under siege.
Iranian people are opposing the current government and Israel and US are benefiting from that, it doesn’t mean the Iranese will doesn’t exist or that they’re somehow subjugated or acting in orders by Israel and US. Suggesting that is frankly a bit offensive towards those protesting.
If you’re looking for some pure revolution where there aren’t any outside forces supporting the revolutionaries or benefiting from their actions, I don’t think such revolution has happened in modern times.
That’s not the point at all. The Iranian people obviously have grievances. They have obviously protested before.
The point I am making is that it’s literally not possible for the Iranian masses to defend themselves against Israel and the US if they undermine their government’s security forces. The will of the people will be subjugated and instead of the Iranian people deciding how to run their country, the US will be deciding, just like last time when the US coup’ed Iran and determined how they would run the country.
The argument is not and has never been that each protestor is delusional and doesn’t have real grievance and is instead brainwashed and controlled by Israel. The argument is that attempting to overthrow the Iranian government does NOT lead to national self determination but will lead to national subjugation by the US.
I mean we’ll see if they manage to overthrow it or not. If enough people there want it, even the brutal tactics of the current government aren’t enough to stop it.
Yeah, got a comment removed as „islamophobic“, calling the regime islamofascists, while at the same time rooting for the people of Iran. Some people cannot comprehend, that the enemy of my enemy is sometimes just another dictatorial regime full of assholes.
There is a lot to unpack here honestly. Let me say first that I support the Iranian people in their quest for reforms. For me the second thing is history.
The US has had its hand in regime change in Iran for a long time going back to the 1950s. They helped install a dictator and remove an elected democratic leader. This arguably lead to the revolution.
So people who know history are a little bit bitter with the US and allies bombing the fuck out of Iran while calling their people to rise up.
It’s ok they are a minority, hence the downvotes, I just wish Lemmy would auto hide/fold comments below -3.
Tankies are just nationalists for other countries, it’s why they’re so boring and predictable in their retoric and have no problem dehumanizing anyone they disagree with, especially women. They claim to be “socialist” or “communist”, but really they’re just MLs who worship Stalin (& other dictators) not because of any progress they achieved in the countries they dictated (it was often minimal beyond an initial boom due to getting rid of the previous dictator) but because they said cool rhetoric against the West (often while collaborating with Western capitalists or even Nazis).
They’re also loud and unpopular, the way we beat them on Lemmy is simply to grow the userbase of normal users to the point where the tankies posting their insane takes is just background noise.
That’s common - One of the tankies finds something to post and immediately calls over his mates to vote. it normalizes after a while in popular posts, but it works in less frequented spaces.
Never heard of it before. From a quick search it looks like it’s an IDF policy to not allow its own soldiers to be taken as POW (all articles say kidnapped but this is language just used to illegitimatize the forces fighting Israeli oppression) by any means necessary up to and including killing its own service members.
Seems like the policy was invoked and lead to Israel murdering its own civilians at the beginning of the most recent Gaza conflict/genocide.
Just trying to see if you’re an Israel shill. Like when you suspect that someone online is a Russia bot, you ask for a cupcake recipe. If you suspect someone is an Israel shill, you ask what the Hannibal Directive is. I think it’s a fair suspicious than someone speaking against Iran online, it’s a good chance they’re a CIA/IDF account.
People get so drawn into their camps and start viewing the world in a good or bad binary that doesn’t reflect the real world at all. The world is messy and there are a lot of oppressive regimes, and they often oppose each other. Just because one bad regime opposes another bad regime doesn’t mean that you have to pick one to be “good” and to support.
Well, I choose to believe you’re more than a useful idiot, and are getting paid for your take. But just to be sure, can you write the words “Hannibal Directive”?
“Dance for me so I can determine if you are an idiot or a paid shill!”
While I want to help with your delusions that a horde of paid CIA operatives follow you around all day, you basically said if I do that you’ll call me an idiot.
Bro plenty of these anti Iran shills are just liberal idiots who have no object permanence about the region and so are easily moved by corporate media tugging at their heart strings.
In the business they call them useful idiots. Its why neocons have had their way since 2001.
I take your point though that a lot of these online posts are.being astroturfed by Zionists
Yeah, no. Growth is achieved only through adversity. Take the US, for example. Keep things “peaceful”, you get a complacent population that manages to elect an orange rapid monkey into office. That’s progress? Sure buddy…
Apparently, the interactions I’ve had on this have left me convinced there are influence agents, and I may even have had an ai chatbot arguing with me. Either than or a very lazy influence operative.
You wouldn’t think they would bother in such granular detail as working lemmy but I guess with automation and ai there is no limit, social media will be rendered useless from them at some point. It’s already over half of accounts that are thought to be fake, influence agent accounts. Over half of all internet content is written by machines too I believe if I have the statistic right.
You can write one, I’m sure you can get it published in a sociology journal as long as you pepper it with enough sideways jabs at “white men” as an abstract entity.
It is probably chatbots making these dumbass ad hominem arguments.
Yes same with Venezuela, regime bad, therefore war good, opposing war bad. As they are advocating for the worst people in the world to use military force.
That’s all good and well but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. and western allies are intervening, and we have intervened continuously since we overthrew their secular democratic government in 1953. Since the Islamic Revolution overthrew our puppet regime in 1979, we have crippled their economy with sanctions, assassinated leaders and civilian scientists, and bombed their country. Even if you believe these revolts are 100% organic, manifesting spontaneously with no assistance or encouragement from Mossad, CIA, etc (doubtful), the context is that the people have already been victimized and pushed to the brink by western powers as much as their own government. That is context that simply cannot be ignored, particularly since this looks a lot like 1953.
Even if you believe these revolts are 100% organic, manifesting spontaneously with no assistance or encouragement from Mossad, CIA, etc
So do you any proof of that or are you just really really sure that’s true?
the context is that the people have already been victimized and pushed to the brink by western powers as much as their own government
And? Does this mean there’s no possible way that these people are capable of not wanting to live under a theocratic dictatorship? Are you trying to imply they can’t make that decision on their own? If so that’s infantalizing and patronizing an entire group of people.
Or are you suggesting that the whole reason that this oppressive regime is in charge is because of the US? Because that is entirely true. You’ll get no disagreement from me.
Also why are you wasting your time monologing on all the terrible things the west have done to the middle east and Iran? You’ll get no disagreement from me. These were all bad actions. I don’t see how that justifys a theocratic dictatorship that brutalizes its own population.
You can be anti-western intervention and anti-dictatorship. Actually based on your own source you so kindly provided these are one in the same. As you said 73% of dictatorships are propped up by the US.
Mossad LITERALLY tweeted that they are on the ground with the protestors. Also, did you forget history? No not decades ago, last fucking year, Mossad was in Iran, in Tehran, with entire buildings kitted out with drones and munitions and recon and comms gear, coordinating and killing.
Yes there’s oodles of evidence that Israel is literally on the ground in Iran right now attempting to overthrow the government, kill top officials, and disable defenses. What is wrong with your news consumption that you do not know this?
Nono, the Iranian people must please stay quiet and just accept their theocratic overlords, you see. They really don’t like the US, so we must kiss their ass.
I never thought I’d see Lemmy so desperately supporting a theocratic dictatorship that allows women to be stoned to death for minor “offenses” to their archaic code, but here we are.
For me it’s not so much supporting the Iranian regime but seriously doubting whether any outside interference will actually help the people. Because when has it ever done so?
For a lot of people on here, tankies especially, anyone that opposes the West is incapable of doing harm and must be defended at all costs. Human rights abuses are ignored so long as they can go “west bad”. Like, yes, the West is indeed bad. That doesn’t excuse the awful actions of the regimes that oppose them nor make it okay.
You’re forgetting that nuance is forbidden. Anyone with a nuanced point of view is obviously a fascist sympathizer /s
Just kidding, fascists and tankies alike have no concept of nuance. They’re cut from the same cloth…
From where I’m sitting, pretty much everyone in power is fucked.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. A tale as old as humanity itself.
Similarly, money is not the root of evil. Desire to get it no matter what, is.
Power and authority are the big root problems
very convenient to label anyone as tankie who is against liberal zionists. No is excusing wrong doings of the iranian govt, however we need to be real here, western regime changes have never been good and particularly how this is openly israel backed is even more problematic. Not to forget govt still has support in iran and in case of regime change it would lead to catastrophic civil war - surely that wont liberate women. I dont support religious theocracy but we need to deal with reality, what happened to the “lesser of two evils” you liberals yap about all the time?
Wait didn’t we get women’s rights in Afghanistan after bombing them for 20 years? Ah nevermind, I already moved on to the next big issue.
It sounds like you are against the protesters, which in reality is supporting the government…
I’m not against the protests, but I am 100% against the installation of a puppet shah through US/Israeli interference and intervention.
There’s no good outcome here?
That sounds dismissive of the actual people protesting there and sounds like they don’t have any say on the matter
Yes. Supporting the government is in reality opposing Zionism. I know it’s hard logic, but bear with me.
There is no alternative to the current government of Iran that is capable of organizing the military to defend against the US and Israel.
If the current government were to fall, the military would have a two-way fight that they would need to navigate, splitting their focus and creating mass paranoia.
It would be almost impossible to tell the difference between a legit revolution and a CIA color revolution, of which we have documented evidence.
So, if you oppose Zionism you must support the Iranian government, and if you support the Iranian people overthrowing their government TODAY then you support Zionism.
But you can be smarter than that and be like the rest of us who want the Iranian people to overthrow their government and since we want that the only way we can support them is by ending the threats from Israel and the US and Britain. If we can end the threats, then the Iranian people will have the safety to manage their own affairs.
Today, they are under siege and must not lose at all costs.
I say if Iranian people want to overthrow the current system then I’m all for it, rooting for the status quo against their will “for the greater good” sounds fucked up to me. Iranian people should be the one deciding the outcome here.
It’s not possible for the people of Iran to decide the outcome. That’s what you’re ignoring. If Iran was completely disconnected from this plane of existence, sure, do it.
But Mossad is literally operating inside Iran and has been for years. During the attempted decapitation attack last year, when Israel shot missiles from fighter jets into apartments of top scientists and politicians, it was also discovered that Mossad was operating entire buildings as forward bases, with large amounts of drones, munitions, and recon capabilities.
Yes, it would be great for the people of Iran to decide, but it would require them to weaken the control and capabilities of the state, which woul guarantee Israeli and US involvement immediately.
The reason the Iranian people are not able to change their government is because they are under siege.
Iranian people are opposing the current government and Israel and US are benefiting from that, it doesn’t mean the Iranese will doesn’t exist or that they’re somehow subjugated or acting in orders by Israel and US. Suggesting that is frankly a bit offensive towards those protesting.
If you’re looking for some pure revolution where there aren’t any outside forces supporting the revolutionaries or benefiting from their actions, I don’t think such revolution has happened in modern times.
That’s not the point at all. The Iranian people obviously have grievances. They have obviously protested before.
The point I am making is that it’s literally not possible for the Iranian masses to defend themselves against Israel and the US if they undermine their government’s security forces. The will of the people will be subjugated and instead of the Iranian people deciding how to run their country, the US will be deciding, just like last time when the US coup’ed Iran and determined how they would run the country.
The argument is not and has never been that each protestor is delusional and doesn’t have real grievance and is instead brainwashed and controlled by Israel. The argument is that attempting to overthrow the Iranian government does NOT lead to national self determination but will lead to national subjugation by the US.
Each one if us want that, but at this moment it is not likely
I mean we’ll see if they manage to overthrow it or not. If enough people there want it, even the brutal tactics of the current government aren’t enough to stop it.
Yeah, got a comment removed as „islamophobic“, calling the regime islamofascists, while at the same time rooting for the people of Iran. Some people cannot comprehend, that the enemy of my enemy is sometimes just another dictatorial regime full of assholes.
There is a lot to unpack here honestly. Let me say first that I support the Iranian people in their quest for reforms. For me the second thing is history.
The US has had its hand in regime change in Iran for a long time going back to the 1950s. They helped install a dictator and remove an elected democratic leader. This arguably lead to the revolution.
So people who know history are a little bit bitter with the US and allies bombing the fuck out of Iran while calling their people to rise up.
It’s ok they are a minority, hence the downvotes, I just wish Lemmy would auto hide/fold comments below -3.
Tankies are just nationalists for other countries, it’s why they’re so boring and predictable in their retoric and have no problem dehumanizing anyone they disagree with, especially women. They claim to be “socialist” or “communist”, but really they’re just MLs who worship Stalin (& other dictators) not because of any progress they achieved in the countries they dictated (it was often minimal beyond an initial boom due to getting rid of the previous dictator) but because they said cool rhetoric against the West (often while collaborating with Western capitalists or even Nazis).
They’re also loud and unpopular, the way we beat them on Lemmy is simply to grow the userbase of normal users to the point where the tankies posting their insane takes is just background noise.
My browser (Summit) auto-folds comments below some limit. I don’t know what that limit is, but it’s probably modifiable in the settings somewhere.
When I first made this comment they were up voted and the majority in the thread. Glad to see it reverse
That’s common - One of the tankies finds something to post and immediately calls over his mates to vote. it normalizes after a while in popular posts, but it works in less frequented spaces.
Ive seen alot of liberal zionists here, that should be more problematic to you.
You seem like a trustworthy source. What is the Hannibal Directive?
Never heard of it before. From a quick search it looks like it’s an IDF policy to not allow its own soldiers to be taken as POW (all articles say kidnapped but this is language just used to illegitimatize the forces fighting Israeli oppression) by any means necessary up to and including killing its own service members.
Seems like the policy was invoked and lead to Israel murdering its own civilians at the beginning of the most recent Gaza conflict/genocide.
So yeah Israel being terrible as usual.
What were you trying to bait me into?
Just trying to see if you’re an Israel shill. Like when you suspect that someone online is a Russia bot, you ask for a cupcake recipe. If you suspect someone is an Israel shill, you ask what the Hannibal Directive is. I think it’s a fair suspicious than someone speaking against Iran online, it’s a good chance they’re a CIA/IDF account.
Yeah not really. That’s an insane take actually.
People get so drawn into their camps and start viewing the world in a good or bad binary that doesn’t reflect the real world at all. The world is messy and there are a lot of oppressive regimes, and they often oppose each other. Just because one bad regime opposes another bad regime doesn’t mean that you have to pick one to be “good” and to support.
Well, I choose to believe you’re more than a useful idiot, and are getting paid for your take. But just to be sure, can you write the words “Hannibal Directive”?
“Dance for me so I can determine if you are an idiot or a paid shill!”
While I want to help with your delusions that a horde of paid CIA operatives follow you around all day, you basically said if I do that you’ll call me an idiot.
So I guess I’ll be CIA today
Huh, so it does work, and I was right.
My man, you need to seek professional help, whatever chamber you got your theories from is hurting you
Bro plenty of these anti Iran shills are just liberal idiots who have no object permanence about the region and so are easily moved by corporate media tugging at their heart strings.
In the business they call them useful idiots. Its why neocons have had their way since 2001.
I take your point though that a lot of these online posts are.being astroturfed by Zionists
Heh, you should read my other comments here. I used that exact phrase. I had higher hope though.
Yeah, I haven’t seen this level of media gaslighting since Al Jolani was wheeled into power by the CIA and Turkey.
Your grandpa 95% beat his wife too, hell even your dad depending on your age. Progress is something that happens in times of peace.
Occupying and colonizing only ever stalls that progress. See Afghanistan as example.
Man, I love comparing individual violence against a state that enforces a strict legal gender apartheid.
The USSR had more progressive laws during their civil war than in peace times under Stalin. It’s a leadership question, not a peace question.
Yeah, no. Growth is achieved only through adversity. Take the US, for example. Keep things “peaceful”, you get a complacent population that manages to elect an orange rapid monkey into office. That’s progress? Sure buddy…
Sounds like that weak men hard times bullshit.
Your definition of supporting is not supporting the US and Israel vs Iran War II. So yes, I can believe that.
What I can’t believe is trolls would bother to work little old lemmy threads to work up cause for war.
Such a fun war for your patrons, the US and Israel, as Iran can’t fight back in any real way. Planes are fun.
If you can’t believe paid shills and other bad faith operators are present on lemmy, then you’ve really not been paying much attention…
Apparently, the interactions I’ve had on this have left me convinced there are influence agents, and I may even have had an ai chatbot arguing with me. Either than or a very lazy influence operative.
You wouldn’t think they would bother in such granular detail as working lemmy but I guess with automation and ai there is no limit, social media will be rendered useless from them at some point. It’s already over half of accounts that are thought to be fake, influence agent accounts. Over half of all internet content is written by machines too I believe if I have the statistic right.
Jury’s out on that.
[ citation needed ]
I don’t see Lemmy ‘desperate’ for anything.
[citation needed]
I do not see Lemmy ‘supporting’ anything.
You can be my first citation
So we agree you may not know how to cite a valid source.
Dude, there’s not gonna be a peer-reviewed article on comment sentiments in lemmy comments. Just look at the fucking thread and see for yourself
or is there?
You can write one, I’m sure you can get it published in a sociology journal as long as you pepper it with enough sideways jabs at “white men” as an abstract entity.
Please. Opposing intervention is not the same as “supporting the regime”. By the way, how did that theocratic dictatorship come to be?
And finally:
https://truthout.org/articles/us-provides-military-assistance-to-73-percent-of-world-s-dictatorships/
This is a garbage gotcha because you assume that I support the US policy of intervention.
I can both acknowledge that the current regime in Iran is a theocratic dictatorship and that the US has no buisness intervening.
I am equally capable of disliking the regime in Iran and the US.
If the regime falls this is great. If the US intervenes and forcibly topples the regime this is bad. As we’ve seen historically that leads to failure.
Maybe don’t support a regime that allows for raped women to be murdered?
but be real, do you see any other alternative?
Be real, there is no revolutionary movement to occupy the power gap, wishful thinking can only get you so far
It is probably chatbots making these dumbass ad hominem arguments.
Yes same with Venezuela, regime bad, therefore war good, opposing war bad. As they are advocating for the worst people in the world to use military force.
That’s all good and well but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. and western allies are intervening, and we have intervened continuously since we overthrew their secular democratic government in 1953. Since the Islamic Revolution overthrew our puppet regime in 1979, we have crippled their economy with sanctions, assassinated leaders and civilian scientists, and bombed their country. Even if you believe these revolts are 100% organic, manifesting spontaneously with no assistance or encouragement from Mossad, CIA, etc (doubtful), the context is that the people have already been victimized and pushed to the brink by western powers as much as their own government. That is context that simply cannot be ignored, particularly since this looks a lot like 1953.
So do you any proof of that or are you just really really sure that’s true?
And? Does this mean there’s no possible way that these people are capable of not wanting to live under a theocratic dictatorship? Are you trying to imply they can’t make that decision on their own? If so that’s infantalizing and patronizing an entire group of people.
Or are you suggesting that the whole reason that this oppressive regime is in charge is because of the US? Because that is entirely true. You’ll get no disagreement from me.
Also why are you wasting your time monologing on all the terrible things the west have done to the middle east and Iran? You’ll get no disagreement from me. These were all bad actions. I don’t see how that justifys a theocratic dictatorship that brutalizes its own population.
You can be anti-western intervention and anti-dictatorship. Actually based on your own source you so kindly provided these are one in the same. As you said 73% of dictatorships are propped up by the US.
Mossad LITERALLY tweeted that they are on the ground with the protestors. Also, did you forget history? No not decades ago, last fucking year, Mossad was in Iran, in Tehran, with entire buildings kitted out with drones and munitions and recon and comms gear, coordinating and killing.
Yes there’s oodles of evidence that Israel is literally on the ground in Iran right now attempting to overthrow the government, kill top officials, and disable defenses. What is wrong with your news consumption that you do not know this?
Nono, the Iranian people must please stay quiet and just accept their theocratic overlords, you see. They really don’t like the US, so we must kiss their ass.
There’s also a big push by these people from any retaliation in the US saying it’s “exactly what he wants”.
Stay quite and let dictators do what they like. That’s the go to for dictatorship to continue.
Here’s a source, they explains it well, and better than I could https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T5adNE0bMU