The basic fact is that capitalists want to pay as little as possible while workers want to be paid as much as possible
Same problem in Socialism among workers unless all are paid equally.
capitalist could make comes from value workers created.
Capitalists bring the company. There would be no capitalists if workers would create their own companies in sufficcient numbers.
capitalist could make comes from value workers created.
Yes
and collapse, it’s unsustainable. …
I think that is lore of hope that is wrong. At last there would be one capitalist, owning everything. What should challenge his power if workers are kept placit and divided?
No amount of progressive taxation can fix this
Why? If there would be enough taxation, UBI jobs would pay their worth and profits would shrink. Problem is that Capitalists would oppose this, and still resource allocation by value and not benefit.
humanity to become the master of capital.
That’s fine with me.
We need to work towards collectivization
I also have no idea what you’re hinting at by saying “there’s no we.”
Where is the collective that does the collectivization?
Power isn’t a supernatural corrupting force, power is a tool, not a need itself. There is no tendency for those in power to try to get more.
Socialism works to eradicate class distinctions. Workers wanting more for their labor is fine, but in capitalism it’s the capitalists that hold all of the leverage and thus pay workers as little as possible. Capitalists are parasites.
Capitalists do not “bring the company,” they own the paper that legally entails them to it. The workers are the ones that run the company, capitalists are entirely unnecessary from an economic standpoint.
If there was a single capitalist owning everything, then there wouldn’t be. Capitalism demands competition and circulation of commodities, capitalists depend on that for profit. If it all dies, then capitalism would cease to function and break down, and the ensuing fallout would result in either socialism or barbarism.
As I alluded to above, the tendency for the rate of profit to fall in a finite world results in gradual breakdown of capitalism. Imperialism causes it to stick around for longer, but also prompts revolution in the global south. Taxation cannot stop the fundamental problems with sustaining an economy where rates of profit lower over time and competition dies.
As for collectivization, it just sounds like you’re asking why we aren’t yet organized. Some countries already have organized and successfully established socialism, the rest of us still need to organize.
Money and Capital is also not a need. Of course, capital is accumulating. But without making good decisions, capital would decay and be overtaken by competitors. Capitalists make good decisions to maintain and increase power. Power is no physical need but a mental one.
There is no tendency for those in power to try to get more.
Why do people want to rise in hierarchies? Not for money alone.
Workers wanting more for their labor is fine
How to settle among different classes of workers?
capitalists that hold all of the leverage
Only without UBI. If workers can walk away, they can ask for the value of their work and capitalists could only get the value of their own work.
capitalists are entirely unnecessary from an economic standpoint
If workers would do the business part.
Capitalism demands competition
No, capitalism is all about preventing competition. It’s liberal markets that need competition. With competition there are no profits above production costs. The profit of capitalists does not only come from underpaying workers but also from overpaying buyers.
circulation of commodities
Commodities would still be bought by workers if there is only one capitalist. Earth would be one big mining town.
Taxation cannot stop the fundamental problems with sustaining an economy where rates of profit lower over time and competition dies.
If somebody owns everything they can command everything. Why would they need profits?
As for collectivization, it just sounds like you’re asking why we aren’t yet organized.
No. The left seems to look at workers and sees lack of organization. But the workers don’t see workers, they see apprentices, skilled workers, bosses, management. They see women and men, they see nations and races. There is no joined identity. There is hardly anybody who wants to be organized as a worker.
Power is not a mental need nor a physical one, it’s a tool. Capitalism selects for those that can best get the most profits, ergo power is useful in achieving those ends. It isn’t about making “good” decisions, but profitable ones.
Why do people want to rise in hierarchies? Not for money alone.
This is a cop-out answer. People don’t have a natural desire to “rise in hierarchies.” If that’s the best way to improve your material conditions then people will desire to rise, not for an obsession over power or domination.
How to settle among different classes of workers?
If you mean between the peasantry and proletariat, the answer is to industrialize agriculture and fold everyone into the proletariat gradually (alongside collectivizing production and distribution to erase class). If you mean between, say, plumbers and engineers, those are the same class.
Only without UBI. If workers can walk away, they can ask for the value of their work and capitalists could only get the value of their own work.
Utter fantasy. UBI is just a form of social welfare, but with capitalists in charge of the state UBI will only exist in a manner that benefits capitalists. The state isn’t above class struggle, but within it. Further, capitalists do not labor. The day to day management of companies is done by workers, capitalists contribute nothing but the fact that they legally own the tools.
No, capitalism is all about preventing competition. It’s liberal markets that need competition. With competition there are no profits above production costs. The profit of capitalists does not only come from underpaying workers but also from overpaying buyers.
Profit comes from underpaying workers. Profit is made by selling commodities for their value, which is made up of raw materials, tool usage, etc called “constant capital,” and for wages, called “variable capital.” Constant capital is crystallized prior labor, the profit comes from paying a worker for only a small portion of their labor time, regulated around cost of reproduction of labor (ie, minimum customary living standards). Monopoly prices raise the rate of profit, which is why companies try to seek monopoly, but they also need competition in order to keep circulation of commodities flowing for their own valorization of invested capital.
Capitalism kills itself, it’s a contradictory system.
Commodities would still be bought by workers if there is only one capitalist. Earth would be one big mining town.
Think of it this way: If a single capitalist owned everything, then cost of goods collapses. There is no circulation anymore, only planned production and distribution, and absolutely no organized class for protecting said single capitalist. Capitalism would cease to function. Company towns only “worked” because they existed in the context of a grander market that the capitalists could get all that they wanted from.
If somebody owns everything they can command everything. Why would they need profits?
Because that is the driving basis for capitalism and material gain under it. That’s why I’m saying that this hypothetical is impossible and would collapse immediately, just like anarcho-capitalism. It fundamentally misunderstands how capitalism works.
No. The left seems to look at workers and sees lack of organization. But the workers don’t see workers, they see apprentices, skilled workers, bosses, management. They see women and men, they see nations and races. There is no joined identity. There is hardly anybody who wants to be organized as a worker.
This is a very western viewpoint, and one that is increasingly incorrect. As capitalism decays, class awareness is rising alongside class struggle.
Why do you believe that?
Same problem in Socialism among workers unless all are paid equally.
Capitalists bring the company. There would be no capitalists if workers would create their own companies in sufficcient numbers.
Yes
I think that is lore of hope that is wrong. At last there would be one capitalist, owning everything. What should challenge his power if workers are kept placit and divided?
Why? If there would be enough taxation, UBI jobs would pay their worth and profits would shrink. Problem is that Capitalists would oppose this, and still resource allocation by value and not benefit.
That’s fine with me.
Where is the collective that does the collectivization?
Power isn’t a supernatural corrupting force, power is a tool, not a need itself. There is no tendency for those in power to try to get more.
Socialism works to eradicate class distinctions. Workers wanting more for their labor is fine, but in capitalism it’s the capitalists that hold all of the leverage and thus pay workers as little as possible. Capitalists are parasites.
Capitalists do not “bring the company,” they own the paper that legally entails them to it. The workers are the ones that run the company, capitalists are entirely unnecessary from an economic standpoint.
If there was a single capitalist owning everything, then there wouldn’t be. Capitalism demands competition and circulation of commodities, capitalists depend on that for profit. If it all dies, then capitalism would cease to function and break down, and the ensuing fallout would result in either socialism or barbarism.
As I alluded to above, the tendency for the rate of profit to fall in a finite world results in gradual breakdown of capitalism. Imperialism causes it to stick around for longer, but also prompts revolution in the global south. Taxation cannot stop the fundamental problems with sustaining an economy where rates of profit lower over time and competition dies.
As for collectivization, it just sounds like you’re asking why we aren’t yet organized. Some countries already have organized and successfully established socialism, the rest of us still need to organize.
Money and Capital is also not a need. Of course, capital is accumulating. But without making good decisions, capital would decay and be overtaken by competitors. Capitalists make good decisions to maintain and increase power. Power is no physical need but a mental one.
Why do people want to rise in hierarchies? Not for money alone.
How to settle among different classes of workers?
Only without UBI. If workers can walk away, they can ask for the value of their work and capitalists could only get the value of their own work.
If workers would do the business part.
No, capitalism is all about preventing competition. It’s liberal markets that need competition. With competition there are no profits above production costs. The profit of capitalists does not only come from underpaying workers but also from overpaying buyers.
Commodities would still be bought by workers if there is only one capitalist. Earth would be one big mining town.
If somebody owns everything they can command everything. Why would they need profits?
No. The left seems to look at workers and sees lack of organization. But the workers don’t see workers, they see apprentices, skilled workers, bosses, management. They see women and men, they see nations and races. There is no joined identity. There is hardly anybody who wants to be organized as a worker.
Power is not a mental need nor a physical one, it’s a tool. Capitalism selects for those that can best get the most profits, ergo power is useful in achieving those ends. It isn’t about making “good” decisions, but profitable ones.
This is a cop-out answer. People don’t have a natural desire to “rise in hierarchies.” If that’s the best way to improve your material conditions then people will desire to rise, not for an obsession over power or domination.
If you mean between the peasantry and proletariat, the answer is to industrialize agriculture and fold everyone into the proletariat gradually (alongside collectivizing production and distribution to erase class). If you mean between, say, plumbers and engineers, those are the same class.
Utter fantasy. UBI is just a form of social welfare, but with capitalists in charge of the state UBI will only exist in a manner that benefits capitalists. The state isn’t above class struggle, but within it. Further, capitalists do not labor. The day to day management of companies is done by workers, capitalists contribute nothing but the fact that they legally own the tools.
Profit comes from underpaying workers. Profit is made by selling commodities for their value, which is made up of raw materials, tool usage, etc called “constant capital,” and for wages, called “variable capital.” Constant capital is crystallized prior labor, the profit comes from paying a worker for only a small portion of their labor time, regulated around cost of reproduction of labor (ie, minimum customary living standards). Monopoly prices raise the rate of profit, which is why companies try to seek monopoly, but they also need competition in order to keep circulation of commodities flowing for their own valorization of invested capital.
Capitalism kills itself, it’s a contradictory system.
Think of it this way: If a single capitalist owned everything, then cost of goods collapses. There is no circulation anymore, only planned production and distribution, and absolutely no organized class for protecting said single capitalist. Capitalism would cease to function. Company towns only “worked” because they existed in the context of a grander market that the capitalists could get all that they wanted from.
Because that is the driving basis for capitalism and material gain under it. That’s why I’m saying that this hypothetical is impossible and would collapse immediately, just like anarcho-capitalism. It fundamentally misunderstands how capitalism works.
This is a very western viewpoint, and one that is increasingly incorrect. As capitalism decays, class awareness is rising alongside class struggle.