My wife and I recently celebrated our anniversary by going back to the chapel we were married in and revisiting the restaurant from our first date.
I am one very lucky guy.
My wife and I recently celebrated our anniversary by going back to the chapel we were married in and revisiting the restaurant from our first date.
I am one very lucky guy.
Christianity is a beautiful religion. God becomes a man so he can suffer the punishment that humans deserves, so He can forgive humans without becoming an imperfect contradiction (and therefore not God)
So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. Beautiful. Poetic, even.
Why was a blood sacrifice necessary? Can’t God forgive without it?
Not purporting to have all the answers here or to ascribe to any particular one.
That said though…The concept is that sin (breaking the rules set forth) has a price that has to be paid. Pre jesus that was done with sacrificing an animal, generally the best lamb of a litter(think litter is the right word, doesn’t matter really). It was meant to be symbolism for when jesus performed his sacrifice.
The whole purpose with jesus coming was to be the sacrifice that would pay the price for sins committed. Thus allowing the law to have its demands of punishment be met, and allowing mercy at the same time. Appeasing justice and granting mercy.
The whole trinity concept (god is jesus and the holy spirit etc) is distinctly Catholicism, (maybe a couple others, not sure edit:not just a catholic thing, I’ve been corrected.). It confuses the fuck out of me on a conceptual level so I’m not sure how to explain it. But in general I think what I’ve laid out is the basis for many of the sects
It’s definitely not just a couple others. The vast majority of modern denominations believe in the trinity. The list of sects that reject the trinity is much shorter.
Gotcha, thanks for the correction!
The trinity is very, very much not just a Catholic thing.
I stand corrected, thanks!
No. If God forgave without it, then He wouldn’t be perfectly just, then He’d be imperfect and thus not God.
There are many things beautiful on a human level, but why would you think the supernatural would convince an atheists Christianity is beautiful?
That’s not what I was commenting about. The story of Christianity on forgiveness is beautiful.
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Aloha. Episcopal priest here. I applaud your valiant efforts at evangelism in this corner of the fediverse. It takes a degree of courage to be so open about your faith in a place that can be consistently hostile to the Christian religion. Thank God for people like you.
Now, I want to offer a little push-back on your soteriology (fancy term for the theology of salvation for those who don’t know). You’re espousing a version of substitutionary atonement theology as though it is the universally held view of Christianity in regards to the “mechanics” of salvation. It is not. Not only are there multiple views within substitutionary atonement itself, there are a plethora of ideas, stretching all the way back to the earliest days of Christianity, to try and make sense of how Jesus’ death on a cross and resurrection from that death serve to “save” humanity. So let me, humbly, offer my view (which, the more I read it, seems to be the most supported biblically), which I call the Expository view of the Atonement:
The death of Jesus is meant by God, primarily, to lay bare (that is, to expose) the true nature of sin. God, incarnate, chooses to become the “conclusion” of what sin is all about. Every sin, then, is defined by the murder of God, the murder of Jesus. This helps us better understand how wicked human sinfulness can be. Kids in Gaza being systematically starved? That’s being done to Jesus. Trans people being ostracized or driven to suicide? Being done to Jesus. Supporting a regime that kidnaps people off the street? Wealth-addicts who exploit entire societies and make a mockery of the Christian religion? You get the idea. Even “small” sins like lying and cheating are covered here because doing these goes against what is universally understood as “good” and all goodness originates in God. Therefore this is tantamount to telling God His expectations for us don’t matter and that He may as well be dead. Matthew 25 more or less lays this all out when it talks about what happens when we do things “to the least of these.”
This all needs to be exposed so that we can see the fullness of what we’ve done, that there is a theological dimension to our actions. God takes our evil actions personally. Jesus on a cross is a visceral symbol of all this. But it’s also a powerful thing because it is on the cross that Jesus declares that we are all forgiven. This is the literal sense of us being saved “from our sins” (which is the actual good news that is preached all throughout the book of Acts).
Salvation is not about Jesus saving us from God’s wrath. It’s Him saving us from our worst impulses. If Hell is a factor in any of this, then Hell is a thing of our own making and somewhere we effectively place ourselves.
The resurrection of Jesus goes beyond all of this to demonstrate that even our worst mistakes are not beyond God’s ability to overcome. This is why Saint Paul can declare in Romans that “nothing can separate us from the love of God.” And him also saying that “grace abounds” in inverse proportion to our sinfulness.
Now, this forgiveness is not equal to being “let off the hook” or “getting off scot free.” Rather it becomes an open space where the contrite heart can begin to find healing. And healing can be a painful experience—and it’s proportional; the more serious the disease, the more painful the healing process. So, there are those of us who will suffer even after death. But that suffering is in service of our healing and restoration, not so much our punishment. It’s consequential (in a literal sense), but not because God hates us or whatever. But because we need healing.
I would argue that the more conventional views of substitutionary atonement are logically inconsistent (at best) and/or outright heretical.
You’re in my prayers as a fellow servant of God. Keep the faith and test the spirits!
What I am saying is moreso vicarious satisfaction than Penal Substitutionary Atonement - that is God willingly bearing the punishment Himself for our sins. While I don’t deny either theory, there was a price that needed to be paid. Even the Old Testament was clear about that. Remember the spotless lamb sacrifices?
Genesis 22:8
But then,
Genesis 22:13-14
God provided a ram. In a substitutionary place of Isaac. But where’s the substitutionary Lamb?
John 1:29 ESV
Romans 5:8 ESV
1 John 2:1-6 ESV
The Nicene Creed itself:
In fact, I find the heresy lies in the idea that Jesus didn’t die for us. God is perfectly merciful and perfectly loving, but also perfectly Just. This is where justice meets mercy.
I believe there is some element of truth to what you said- yes, it’s the same evil that starves kids in Gaza that kills Jesus.
Romans 3:10-18 ESV
The atheist commonly says “If god is real, then why doesn’t he just show himself?” Well, He did, and we killed Him.
There is not any “god”. Grow up and stop being scammed.
Who’s the scamming me? And for what?
Who? All religions.
For what? To control your behavior and steal your money in the name of tithe or other donations, including volunteerism.
What if I don’t pay tithes? Why do they need to control my behaviour? Who even is “they”- my priest?
I guarantee you’ve provided something of value. Either cash, donated items/food or your time.
Everything connected to religion is designed to control your behavior.
Any donated food was for foodbank drives. Is donating to the needy bad?
Most of the time I just annoy the priests with questions and theories or pointing out mistakes made in the liturgy.
And why do they need to control my behaviour - who is the individual scamming me?
As I said, religion as a whole is scamming you. Just by attending church, you’re being “controlled”. Very simple and obvious to understand.
Adios.
Not really. You’re not giving much of a motive. Who is religion? Who is in on the scam?