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Keep it going folks, throw out the bosses, seize the means of production! Another world is possible
Greece is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. They don’t respect driving laws. They openly throw trash in the streets. They smoke right in front of “Please don’t smoke here” signs. The Greek politicians are completely corrupt. But these Greek politicians didn’t fall from a sky. They are a reflection of Greek society.
Why do I say this ? Because my country faces similar issues.
Some cultures are just fucked.
Greece is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. They don’t respect driving laws. They openly throw trash in the streets. They smoke right in front of “Please don’t smoke here” signs.
For pedantry’s sake, these aren’t examples of corruption. In order for it to be “corruption,” there has to be someone in a position of power who is misusing their power.
definition
[0] “Corruption is a form of dishonesty or a criminal offense that is undertaken by a person or an organization that is entrusted in a position of authority to acquire illicit benefits or abuse power for one’s gain.” (wikipedia)).
Some examples of corruption would be:
At the very least, the word can be used figuratively to describe the decay and breakdown of social fabric. Personally I find it refreshing to hear an entire society held accountable, not just a few mustache twirling villains at the top.
In the same vein, it’s worth noting that government =/= culture…
Mate, I’ve lived and worked in several countries in Europe and come from a country - Portugal - which in many ways is culturally very similar to Greece, at least judging by conversations I had with Greek friends and colleagues over the years.
In my experience and view, Politics in general, including government, are definitelly the result of what a society considers “normal” and this doesn’t apply to just the Southern European countries but also in my own experience to Western and Northern European ones.
Strictly speaking and as you say they are not the same, it’s more of one being a reflection of the other: what politicians get away with reflects society’s idea of “normal” and things like the cultural view on how strictly people should follow rules: in a country where the idea that “following rules is for suckers” is widespread, Politicians too will not tend to “stay within the rules” with the powers they’ve been entrusted with.
So for example, Corruption is Portugal is IMHO the natural reflection of a culture where Cronyism is widespread and pretty much standard all over the place (and, if you think about it, the Moral distance from “trading favours with paying strangers using the power entrusted to you” to “trading favours with friends using the power entrusted to you” is a lot less than the Moral distance to “thinking one has the responsability to not abuse power entrusted to oneself for one’s own gain directly or indirectly”) and the Law is seen as indicative rather than a set of boundaries that shouldn’t be crossed (except when it comes to violence).
Interestingly and paradoxically, when things do start to change, acceptance of Corruption falls and and the fight against Corruption improves, the Perception of Corruption goes up because there are many more people being caught and convicted for Corruption and that ends up in the News, so it looks like there is more Corruption than before due to more News about it, when it’s actually the opposite.
That’s not just pedantry, that’s unnecessarily narrow-minded. Ever heard of the corrupted heart? According to your definition, that’s an impossibility, unless the heart belongs to someone in authority, or something, I guess.
The point is, there is more than a single interpretation of things, and there is not a singular definition of corruption. Anyone can be corrupted, and giving examples that show that lawlessness permeates every level of society is a great way of showing that corruption is likely endemic in the culture.
I like how you cast everyday breakdown of social fabric as “corruption.” We usually only apply that word to leaders but you’re right it can pervade every level.
In Soviet Russia, means of production seize you!
Wait no not like that
Once “the people” seize the means of production, how will it be run & organized? We might need some people to coordinate between other people. What will these coordinators be called? And what if they abuse their positions? We might need some people that keep coordinators accountable, that audit their behavior, we can call them auditors…
If you aren’t getting where I am going with this, I will just say that while your sentiment might make sense to you, this is a real problem for you to think about. Seizing the means of production is meaningless without a mechanism by which to run it. As soon as you trust other human beings with that ability, you create another class with authority, and thus, the road leads back to exactly where you are.
AI will not fix this because it is centralized compute trained on oppressive data. Perhaps if the data centers were publicly owned and the data was vetted, there would be a better chance, but more likely? It would be AI with human oversight…and yes, same problem again. If a human oversight committee exists, that is once again a human authority position that can be abused. And it doesn’t matter because the planet has foolishly relinquished control of compute power to a tiny minority.
While I believe we are slated for doom (that isn’t so bad, there are much better realities than this one anyway), I’d at least like to see a tiny fraction of intelligent resistance. This has got to be the most disappointing apocalypse I’ve ever witnessed. All the tools are clearly laid out and we’ve collectively chosen to be miserable instead.
Stop repeating the pattern. Find a new way.
I was with you for the first half, but then you went off the rails. Anyone who seriously brings up AI in the discussion for what to do after the revolution is completely deluded. You act like it’s a viable strategy with some issues, but really it’d be immediately worse than even Trump. Day 1 it’d hallucinate a war and try to release nukes around the world. As for the “better realities,” we only get 1 planet and 1 reality. To try to bury your head in the sand with some dream that an alternate reality version of us is doing okay is nothing but a cop out. Maybe another version of our planet is doing well, but we’re responsible for this one - it’s our duty to protect it.
Yes, when we overthrow the government, we’ll need to enact a new government to replace it, and yes, eventually that government will become corrupt and need overthrowing, too. When there exists a position of authority over others, evil people will inevitably worm their way in, but nevertheless, authority is necessary to have a functioning society. Governments are like clothes - you have to change them out every once in a while, ideally before they start to reek of filth.
Did you read what I said about AI? I don’t think so, given your response. To simplify, as I skipped some steps, I was addressing some people who’ve thought about the problem slightly more than an iota. Some think AI systems that govern over humans could help address the human corruptibility / hierarchy problem. It does not.
There are an infinite set of realities. You can see them for yourself, but something tells me you’ll continue onward in your lovely little cage.
Have a nice 3-dimensional day :)
A 13 hour work day, what the fuck? You would no time for anything else.
Assuming a 1 hour commute time:
7am leave for work
8am start work
9pm leave work
10pm get home
9 hours until you have to leave for work again, ~7 hours needed for sleep, only 2 hours to do anything else.
I also just learned the word “roughshod”, interesting.
2hours for cooking, eating, and all your other chores, obviously. Sounds ideal to me.
God forbid you have kids
Those are part of the chores.
Good way to limit population growth though, maybe too good.
actually it’s usually money that forbids you having kids.
so, yes.
1 hour should be enough for all that. Roll on 14 hour workday! 7 days a week.
Otherwise you’re just lazy.
/s
I’m ootl. Who is being told they have to work 13 hr days?
Not directly, but once the law allows for it, employers start demanding it. Individual workers have very little bargaining power to refuse at that point. So before you know it, the 13 hour day is normalized and labor protections have taken a knock back into 1920.
Read the article?
With what time? Greece just cancelled 11hrs from each day. There weren’t enough hours in a day already, and now we’re basically at half that?! Fuck.
Link is broken for me
No
We need a general strike.
Some rulers really are getting too big for their britches.
The french know what to do about that.
And apparently, so do the Nepalese.
They can thank IMF and government.
Greece is subject to post-program monitoring (PPM), focusing on its ability to repay the IMF, as a country which owes the fund more than 1.5 billion SDR or 200 percent of its quota.
The IMF’s austerity policies were criticized as violating the Greek constitution and human rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece_and_the_International_Monetary_Fund
Great way to trade away what (notoriously poor) national productivity you have for presenteeism, less productivity and worse economy (as no-one has the time or energy to shop).
So people were not allowed to work 13 hours in 1 day up until now?
The rule we have here (Denmark) is that we must have 11 hour rest period between 2 shifts.
The normal work week is 37.5 hours, but if you want you can work 13 hours per day, since that gives you 11 hours rest.We have some of the highest wages in Europe, possibly in part because of flexible regulation, mostly negotiated directly between unions and employers.
Denmark is also one of the easiest countries to fire people in EU, but we have one of the lowest unemployment rates.
The fact that it’s easy to fire, also makes it easy to make a decision to try to expand or start new projects. If it goes wrong, damage control can be relatively swift, and not break the company if it fails.Are you getting paid overtime past 8 hours though? Because there’s a big difference between getting double rates for those extra hours (incentivizing your boss to hire a second worker) and demanding everyone work double shifts for normal wages.
Yes of course people are paid for overtime, the article doesn’t say anything about not being paid.
I know in USA it’s normal to not be paid for overtime, but USA is not a civilized country, I thought Greece was.
Maybe people need to unionize more.USA is not a civilized country
As a full time working US citizen this made me chuckle. It’s like a fairytale hearing about the kinds of protections and guarantees people in other countries get.
To us, USA is a dystopian example of what we don’t want to become.
It’s really sad, because things were going really well, as in the right direction 50 years ago. And ironically MAGA is pulling even more in the opposite direction, pulling even further away from everything that was good about America in the 70’s.
Do they make the days 28 hours overall to compensate?
