That’s a good point. Are animal products vegan if they’re willingly given by a being with enough sapience to consent? Is breastmilk vegan? I’d assume so, but I feel like it’s worth asking. I’m asking based on the idea that all people are animals, but not all animals are people. I know that’s something not everyone’s on board with, but I thought it would be good to include this disclaimer.
Most people agree that foods given with consent count as vegan, so breast milk would count. A lot of vegans eat honey, for example, because bees aren’t harmed in the harvesting process.
The argument is that bees overproduce naturally and you barely disturb them to take the combs that are done before they rot (the combs not the honey, honey basically never rots), so you are not harming them in any meaningful way.
Bees found in nature still overproduce, so bees in “captivity” are just given free range in a field of flowers. Technically the queen bee and all the colony could fly away but they don’t because why would they.
That sounds like a rational take. I could accept it, for what that’s worth.
I do like to ask if artificial selection is harmful. Is it possible that generations of queens/hives adapt and evolve to conform to human demands while becoming increasingly dependent on human support?
I don’t think so, artificial beehives are barely a protected box with compartments queen bees are put in, but there’s plenty beehives in the widl too. The reason I quoted captivity in that comment is that those bees go out as far as several kilometres to gather and polinize the flora around them. They could very much find some tree to use as a beehive and keep going out as much.
The reason against the veganism of honey is that it’s technically not consensual, and that the smoke they are thrown to calm themselves so that the humans can take the combs is mistreatment. I mean, I guess? But that’s such a low bar that I don’t subscribe to that, you do you.
In any case I’m not expert, you should do your research to get the most accurate info.
According to the vegan society’s definition of the term veganism, which is generally considered the go to definition, human breast milk when given with consentis vegan.
On the other hand while some attempt to debate the matter Honey is not considered vegan according to that definition.
Honey is questionably vegan because the book that establishes the basic principles of veganism specifically said its people’s choice whether to consider it as acceptable or not because of the lack of harm. If I recall correctly he said something like the debate is worth having but not worth fighting over, because everyone who is even having the debate is trying to do the right thing.
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of … animals …
a forest can be exploited or a water source can be exploited. the definition of exploitation is not dependent on harm, nor sentience, nor consent. veganism seeks to end all animal exploitation.
Off the wall question: does that make exploitation of people incompatible with veganism, even with their consent? If so, can vegans own companies or even shares in publicly traded ones?
Even breastmilk from parent to child? If not, is veganism a moral position? If so, is it immoral to be a human baby?
Not trying to throw stones here, just trying to clarify for the purpose of interpretation. I’m probably splitting hairs here, but it’s interesting to know where the line in the sand is. Obviously, the biggest opportunities are reducing industrial dairy and meat, which are definitely not consensual.
Well yes because we have been doing it before patriarchy and we will do it long after patriarchy is dead.
But I will grant you that some women choose to not have children or to breastfeed them (formula exists, as does donated human breast milk and some women who enjoy the experience will breastfeed other women’s babies).
Me personally? None at all, and I shouldn’t have a say in it either. Other people? I have no idea. It still floors me that enough people object to public breastfeeding for it to be raised as an issue at all. The idea that potentially seeing a breast is more offensive (or offensive at all) than increasing the difficulty of raising a child is a bizarre and unconscionable one in my mind.
Agreed, but dear lord, I hope that’s never happened.
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
Most people aren’t born vegan :)
That’s a good point. Are animal products vegan if they’re willingly given by a being with enough sapience to consent? Is breastmilk vegan? I’d assume so, but I feel like it’s worth asking. I’m asking based on the idea that all people are animals, but not all animals are people. I know that’s something not everyone’s on board with, but I thought it would be good to include this disclaimer.
Most people agree that foods given with consent count as vegan, so breast milk would count. A lot of vegans eat honey, for example, because bees aren’t harmed in the harvesting process.
TIL. I didn’t know honey could be vegan. I would have assumed all animal husbandry wasn’t vegan because of the artificial selection process at least.
The argument is that bees overproduce naturally and you barely disturb them to take the combs that are done before they rot (the combs not the honey, honey basically never rots), so you are not harming them in any meaningful way.
Bees found in nature still overproduce, so bees in “captivity” are just given free range in a field of flowers. Technically the queen bee and all the colony could fly away but they don’t because why would they.
That sounds like a rational take. I could accept it, for what that’s worth.
I do like to ask if artificial selection is harmful. Is it possible that generations of queens/hives adapt and evolve to conform to human demands while becoming increasingly dependent on human support?
I don’t think so, artificial beehives are barely a protected box with compartments queen bees are put in, but there’s plenty beehives in the widl too. The reason I quoted captivity in that comment is that those bees go out as far as several kilometres to gather and polinize the flora around them. They could very much find some tree to use as a beehive and keep going out as much.
The reason against the veganism of honey is that it’s technically not consensual, and that the smoke they are thrown to calm themselves so that the humans can take the combs is mistreatment. I mean, I guess? But that’s such a low bar that I don’t subscribe to that, you do you.
In any case I’m not expert, you should do your research to get the most accurate info.
it’s an animal product
And humans are animals yet human breast milk is considered vegan. It’s about consent and exploitation tbh.
By any strict definition of the term it’s not considered vegan, that said there are people out there who attempt to debate the matter.
got any studies to support this?
According to the vegan society’s definition of the term veganism, which is generally considered the go to definition, human breast milk when given with consent is vegan.
On the other hand while some attempt to debate the matter Honey is not considered vegan according to that definition.
can you link that?
Honey is questionably vegan because the book that establishes the basic principles of veganism specifically said its people’s choice whether to consider it as acceptable or not because of the lack of harm. If I recall correctly he said something like the debate is worth having but not worth fighting over, because everyone who is even having the debate is trying to do the right thing.
Sure do.
just saying it isn’t very convincing.
This is anecdotal. This entire conversation is anecdotal.
then I’ll anecdotally let you know you’re wrong
Sigh. Fine. “Most vegans I’ve talked to about this topic”
no
What about poop?
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of … animals …
a forest can be exploited or a water source can be exploited. the definition of exploitation is not dependent on harm, nor sentience, nor consent. veganism seeks to end all animal exploitation.
So can I eat the poop and still be vegan or what?
no
Off the wall question: does that make exploitation of people incompatible with veganism, even with their consent? If so, can vegans own companies or even shares in publicly traded ones?
Even breastmilk from parent to child? If not, is veganism a moral position? If so, is it immoral to be a human baby?
Not trying to throw stones here, just trying to clarify for the purpose of interpretation. I’m probably splitting hairs here, but it’s interesting to know where the line in the sand is. Obviously, the biggest opportunities are reducing industrial dairy and meat, which are definitely not consensual.
If I willingly breastfeed my child, what moral issue would you or any other person have with it?
If we are forcing a woman to breastfeed or be milked against her will; then that is a different question and a valid moral issue.
Consent matters
Can we say any woman can consent to breastfeeding her child if she lives in a patriarchy?
Well yes because we have been doing it before patriarchy and we will do it long after patriarchy is dead.
But I will grant you that some women choose to not have children or to breastfeed them (formula exists, as does donated human breast milk and some women who enjoy the experience will breastfeed other women’s babies).
Me personally? None at all, and I shouldn’t have a say in it either. Other people? I have no idea. It still floors me that enough people object to public breastfeeding for it to be raised as an issue at all. The idea that potentially seeing a breast is more offensive (or offensive at all) than increasing the difficulty of raising a child is a bizarre and unconscionable one in my mind.
Agreed, but dear lord, I hope that’s never happened.
Agreed.