• OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    I understand the bullet points were brief (and a bit cheeky yeah) but I think it helps to focus if you want the conversation to be productive. Like we could argue for days about a single “full version” of one of the bullet points. I think I do understand what you’re saying, though.

    But in international law, genocide has a specific definition (sure you have seen it but just to be clear):

    any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    Killing members of the group;

    Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

    When people say Israel is committing genocide they mean “they are doing this stuff.” Bearing in mind that any one is enough, the third act is clearly being done, for example. Israeli officials announced that they would purposefully be cutting off food and water to the civilians of Gaza. Having no food and water is clearly a condition that brings about destruction of life. The situation was created purposefully, announced beforehand and the consequences of this are being seen (yes people were talking about it sooner but, you know, we understand what happens if people don’t have food). Oh yeah and are you sick? Bad news, no hospitals.

    There is no “unless a terrorist organisation is there” caveat to this, at least from my understanding. It is an act of genocide. We could do this for the first three or four pretty convincingly.

    In law it’s called transferred intent. If you commit an armed bank robbery and a responding police officer shoots at you but hits and kills a family crossing the street, you are charged for their deaths since their deaths were within the range of probable consequences of committing armed robbery

    I’m not sure this applies to genocide, but is “starving children to death” in the range of probable consequences of someone from the same place as you committing an atrocity? Is this an expected consequence? This is absurd, surely.

    So from your explanations I’m still confused. Do you accept that Israel is committing acts of genocide, by this definition?

    Then the only thing left is intent. But I feel like the amalek thing alone is pretty damning. Especially given IDF chanting it on the ground too. South Africa made a very convincing case for this overall.

    Is your point that, “yes, these things would be genocide but some of the key foundations of the argument are false or misinformation”?

    It seems very obvious to me that people who say Israel is commiting genocide or is an apartheid state are anti semitic or bad faith actors applying a double standard to Israel in order to sway opinion to their self interests, they are themselves anti semites, or they are basing their assessment on the aforementioned falsely colored factual circumstances, on lies and exaggeration, mixed with unfortunate truths.

    I think by your estimation I would be using “falsely colored factual circumstances” etc? It seems a bit dangerous to assume bad faith when an international court has ruled that this is not an unreasonable accusation.

    • AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I’ve heard this argument before so many times now it’s weird. They (the person you are going back and forth with for example) 100% agree that Israel is taking all the actions. They are killing civilians, creating a situation in which food and aid are both dangerous and inconsistent, and use AI to specifically target family homes with large numbers of civilians.

      The civilian casualties aren’t high because Hamas used human shields to make it high, it’s high because the IDF allowed for and made specific rules that targeting civilians was ok en masse, as collateral damage, using Lavender.

      Hamas didn’t make Israel pursue this war in a way that was purposely destructive towards civilians. Israel chose to do this at every turn in reaction to Oct 6th. Israel has all the power in this situation to do things differently.

      It’s not like I don’t get, I would want revenge too, but at some point they’re going to be forced to admit that the pain to the civilians is part of the point. And that their ACTUAL argument is that the civilians deserve it because of Hamas.

      • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        They (the person you are going back and forth with for example) 100% agree that Israel is taking all the actions

        You would hope so but I’m not sure about that. He just blamed the famine on Hamas.

        it’s high because the IDF allowed for and made specific rules that targeting civilians was ok en masse, as collateral damage, using Lavender

        Yeah I read about this. Disgusting. Imagine putting that low a value on human life. Makes me sick to my stomach.

        at some point they’re going to be forced to admit that the pain to the civilians is part of the point. And that their ACTUAL argument is that the civilians deserve it because of Hamas.

        Exactly. But they’re all too cowardly to admit this.

        They don’t seem to see that they’ve lost the moral high ground and they will never regain it again. I for one won’t forget or stop speaking out about this bullshit until the day I die. When the court convicts them of genocide people like JustZ here will either have to re-evaluate and maybe grow as a person or stick their fingers in their ears and claim the court is just so antisemitic and Israel has been innocent all along. I think it’s clear which is more likely

    • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      The court’s ruling takes South Africa’s vague and repetitive allegations as true. It’s only in that circumstance that the allegations is plausible. South Africa’s allegations fall apart under scrutiny. The underlying allegations are unverified reports and bullshit straight from the mouth of literal Hamas members.

      Starving children to death? Hamas started a siege war with a vastly superior force and they didn’t pack enough food to feed their people. How is that not on them? I agree generally with “you break it, you bought it” with countries, but Hamas broke Gaza. The famine has been imminent since November 3, 2023, and it hasn’t materialized. I understand there is food insecurity and some malnutrition. Aid is flowing though and increasing and Israel secured more territory. Death tolls have been going down month over month. The mass starvation and genocide hasn’t been borne out.

      • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Starving children to death?

        Yes.

        Hamas started a siege war with a vastly superior force and they didn’t pack enough food to feed their people. How is that not on them?

        Because Israel is still responsible for it’s own actions and controls the border and flow of aid to Gaza? Is this not obvious? If you’re honestly making this argument I think we’re done here. You have apparently lost all humanity. I thought you could have been a reasonable person but apparently I was wrong.

        • in4aPenny@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Dude anyone defending Israel at this point is devoid of humanity. This guy literally shrugs off aide workers being murdered with precision strikes, let alone thousands of innocent deaths. They’ve demonstrated their belief that 1,500 Israeli lives are significantly more important than 32,000+ Palestinians. “They’re killing less every day” lie as if it’s a good thing, makes me sick. The amount of time they take to write out their long-winded comments excusing mass murder is fucking shocking, and I can’t believe people like them actually exist. Israel could nuke New York, say it was Hamas, and this brainwashed idiot would believe it even if their own family was killed in that strike.

          • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            I know dude I just wanted to give him a chance to not be a piece of shit. But here we are ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

            The amount of time they take to write out their long-winded comments excusing mass murder is fucking shocking

            Yeah seriously. I was trying to be concise and keep on the point and every response was an essay. That’s because somewhere in there he sees the issues with what he’s about to say and so has to package it with all of this bullshit so he doesn’t read it back and see what a monster he has become