In 1880 Germany was mostly self sufficient in generating capital from traditional industries
Self-sufficiency is a myth in a global capitalist system. German agriculture in 1880 relied on imported guano, nitrates, and machinery. German industry relied on imported cotton, rubber, and minerals. You cannot isolate a national economy from the world market that sustains it.
You continue to lie about “European banks, shipping, insurance” like this was a thing in 1880.
Deutsche Bank was founded in 1870 specifically to finance German foreign trade. Dresdner Bank and Commerzbank were active in colonial finance by the 1880s. Lloyd’s of London insured German shipments. British and French shipping lines carried German goods. Capital was never purely national. That is not a lie. That is history.
Rubber (not a thing in 1880)
Rubber was absolutely a thing in 1880. The Congo rubber boom began in the early 1880s. The Amazon rubber boom was in full swing. German chemical firms like BASF and Bayer were already importing rubber for industrial use. Natural rubber was critical for insulation, tires, and machinery. To deny this is to ignore basic industrial history.
Mineral (which one exactly?)
Iron ore from Sweden and Spain. Manganese from Russia and Brazil. Copper from Chile and the US. Tin from Southeast Asia. German steel production depended on imported inputs. Colonial and semi-colonial sources supplied those inputs under conditions of unequal exchange. That is the material relation.
while they had problems with slavery, that was not the result of colonial exploitation, but access to market.
Slavery in the US South was colonial exploitation. The cotton that fed Lancashire and the Ruhr was produced by enslaved labor. That is not “access to market.” That is extraction. To separate the two is idealism.
The hegemon in 1880 was the British Empire […] Germany was actually against the British world order
Rivalry within the core does not negate shared benefit from the periphery. Germany challenged British hegemony precisely because it wanted a larger share of colonial extraction. That is not evidence against the system. That is evidence of how the system works.
colonial empire was a massive net financial loss
Debated in historiography. Even if true for some accounting metrics, it ignores strategic benefits: resource access, market control, geopolitical leverage, technological spin-offs. Capital accumulation is not just about balance sheets. It is about power.
China that has implicit procurement […] conditions on loans
Yes. Chinese loans have conditions. But they do not typically demand privatization, austerity, or deregulation. They do not restructure domestic policy to serve foreign capital. That is a material difference. Not perfection. Not innocence. But difference. Conflating mechanism with outcome is bad analysis.
you repeating the same lies is so tiring that makes me think those books are not that good
You don’t think rubber was a thing in the 1880s. You think Germany was self-sufficient in a global capitalist system. You think buying cotton from slave plantations is just “market access.” You think core-periphery relations are optional.
I am going to ask this earnestly please don’t be offended: are you by chance a German teenager? It would explain the constant attempts to whitewash German imperial history and the extreme gaps in basic historical knowledge.
If not (and honestly even if you are), then please just read the fucking books. Eric Williams. Walter Rodney. Kwame Nkrumah. Samir Amin. Aimé Césaire. CLR James. Frantz Fanon.
I am not a german teenager, are you a fucking AI? Because you are sounding just like AI following a script of bad training.
“cannot isolate a national economy”, “never purely national”, no shit Sherlock. But we are discussing insignificant parts of a nation wealth. Rubber in 1880 Germany was like 0.2% on GDP if I am being generous. Deutsche Bank is a national bank. By 1880 Germany with no colonial empire was a capital exporter, not importer. Sweden and Spain, your typical african colonies.
Wow, very hostile. Honestly not unexpected after getting caught on some pretty bald-faced lies.
Rubber was not a thing in 1880
Shipping insurance wasn’t a thing in 1880
Germany didn’t import minerals or agricultural supplies
You went from denying rubber existed in 1880 to conceding it was “0.2% of GDP” in one message (not to mind 0.2% is a number pulled directly from your ass alongside being irrelevant to the point). You went from “European banks and shipping insurance wasn’t a thing” to “Deutsche Bank is a national bank” like that refutes anything.
I’d be embarrassed too don’t worry I don’t hold it against you.
However after all this, you still have not engaged the core point: Germany and Italy were integrated into the imperial core even before they had direct colonies. Capital, trade, finance, shipping, insurance, markets, all structured by colonial extraction. It’s really not that complicated. It is basic historical materialism.
The fact that you cannot grasp a systemic analysis, and instead lash out when basic facts are corrected, tells me everything I need to know. Seems I hit the nail on the head as they say (bullseye). 🤣
Learn to read the context when discussing, it is really like chatting with a robot…
Rubber was not a thing in 1880
CONTEXT: Germany 1880, trying to establishing the relevance to national wealth of rubber imported from colonies.
COMPLETE EXPLANATION:
do the math, in 1880 we are before the invention of pneumatic bicycle tire, before the automobile industry, before rubber plantation in Congo and Asia.
Global production is 11K tons, almost entirely from the Empire of Brazil, not a colony of a European country, most of which goes to Britain, US and France. At 1880 that is less then 0.2% of GDP for Germany. To me in the context of establishing the reason for Germany wealth being driven by colonial exploitation that is nothing. If for you 0.2%, 0% of which is from a colony, is worth discussing over then you are totally missing the point.
Shipping insurance wasn’t a thing in 1880
CONTEXT: original quote “European banks, shipping, insurance”. We are talking about the system put in place to facilitate exploitation of colonies.
COMPLETE EXPLANATION:
Stressing “European”. Europe was not a thing. Shipping insurance was a thing since medieval age. Was Florence banking system and Genoa shipping insurance in 1300 put in place for exploitation of colonial empires? No, it was put in place to facilitate trade. My mistake in assuming you meant a unified “European” system of exploitation as the alternative was just silly. If you really meant banks and insurance then good for you, on a national level that was a thing and totally irrelevant to the conversation.
Germany didn’t import minerals or agricultural supplies
CONTEXT: you said “British and French colonies supplied cheap cotton, rubber, minerals”. I asked you which mineral. Your quote is not a quote, I never said that. The context is still colonial exploitation, and by asking which mineral I have implied there is no mineral import from British or French colonies relevant to the conversation.
COMPLETE EXPLANATION:
The only mineral not from a European country in your list was tin. Germany had tin deposits on the border with Bohemia, but most of the Tin was from Cornwall. So most of what was true for rubber is true for Tin we are talking a very small portion of GDP most of which was from Britain. The rest was from Malaya
The fact that you cannot grasp a contextual analysis and instead search for futile points to strawman when your points are trash tell me everything I need to know. Seems I hit the nail on the head as they say (bullseye). 🤣
CONTEXT: Germany 1880, trying to establishing the relevance to national wealth of rubber imported from colonies.
Moving the goalposts is not context. It is deflection. Your original claim was that Germany industrialized without colonial benefit. That is false. The global system Germany operated within was structured by colonial extraction. Even if rubber was “0.2% of GDP” (which is again straight from your ass), it still spectacularly misses the point being made. Capital accumulation is not about raw input percentages. It is about super-profits, protected markets, financial infrastructure, and reinvestment capacity. Colonial trade provided all of that. Isolating one commodity used as an example to dismiss the system is not the dunk you seem to think it is.
Global production is 11K tons, almost entirely from the Empire of Brazil, not a colony of a European country
Brazil in 1880 was not “not a colony”. It was a semi-colonial economy, formerly Portuguese, integrated into the British imperial economic sphere. Informal empire counts. The cotton, rubber, and minerals that fed European industry came from conditions of unequal exchange. Prices set in London. Shipping controlled by British firms. Contracts enforced by gunboats. That is the material relation. To pretend that “not a formal colony” means “not extraction” is to ignore how imperialism and colonialism actually works.
Europe was not a thing. Shipping insurance was a thing since medieval age.
No one said “Europe” was a unified state. The point was that German capital operated within a European imperial circuit. British shipping, Lloyd’s insurance, French ports, German industrial demand: all part of the same extraction-based system. To isolate “national” banks from that circuit is methodological nationalism. It ignores how capital actually moves. Deutsche Bank financed foreign trade. German firms used British insurance. German goods moved on British ships. That is not “irrelevant”. That is the system.
The only mineral not from a European country in your list was tin. Germany had tin deposits on the border with Bohemia, but most of the Tin was from Cornwall.
Cornwall was embedded in the British imperial mining complex. Its profits relied on colonial capital, colonial technology, and colonial markets. The same goes for Spanish iron, Swedish copper, Bohemian manganese. These were not isolated national industries. They operated within a European extractive circuit built on colonial power. Cheap labor from the periphery kept input costs down. Colonial infrastructure lowered shipping costs. Imperial finance provided the credit. That is how European mining stayed profitable.
Germany directly benefited from access to these mines. German steel used Spanish iron. German machinery used Swedish copper. German industry used Cornish tin. The prices, the availability, the reliability of supply, all shaped by imperial relations. To treat these as “just European” inputs is to ignore the global division of labor that made them cheap and accessible. Germany did not need its own colonies to benefit from colonial extraction. It just needed to participate in the system. And it did.
You keep isolating variables to avoid the systemic argument. One commodity. One year. One border. That is cherry-picking to protect a preconceived conclusion.
At this point, continuing is futile. You have shown you will move the goalposts, dismiss facts that inconvenience you, and lash out when basic history is corrected. If you are not willing to engage the argument in good faith, there is no point in further comments.
TL;DR baby’s first dialectical and historical materialist breakdown: Germany in 1880 did not industrialize in a vacuum. It operated within a global capitalist system structured by colonial extraction. Raw materials from the periphery (cotton, rubber, minerals) fed German industry at prices shaped by imperial power. Protected colonial markets absorbed German exports. European finance, shipping, and insurance networks built on extraction facilitated German trade. Super-profits from the colonial system funded reinvestment and innovation in the core. Germany benefited from this system even before it had direct colonies. It helped sustain the system through demand, finance, and participation in the imperial circuit. That is how the material relations worked.
Also ai badjacketing me because you can’t make a coherent point is cringe and you should grow up. The fact you talk so arrogantly on a topic you are so woefully uneducated about is embarrassing and honestly you should be embarrassed, but that’s a good thing. You should channel this embarrassment I hope you feel into learning before speaking to avoid it in the future.
Ok, you won, my original claim that “Germany industrialized without colonial benefit” is false. I am defeated. I will claim that “Germany industrialized with minimal colonial benefit where minimal represent an economical input that is less then 5% of GDP by 1880”.
then I will stop this charade. Have a nice day, king of worthless discussion
You cannot even graciously admit you were wrong. You have to make another bs claim pulled straight from your ass and cover it in sarcasm. “Minimal colonial benefit” defined by an arbitrary GDP percentage you just invented.
This was never about winning or losing. I was hoping that from exposure you might decide to do some research instead of spreading colonial apologism and “smarter Europe” nonsense that borders on race science.
Genuinely, if you just take the time to read the works I recommended and apply a proper analysis to history, you will be much more informed. Less likely to be embarrassed. Less likely to lash out when basic facts are corrected.
I wish you the best in growing up and finishing your education. Hopefully it broadens your horizons.
I am so embarrassed in front of your clearly superior knowledge. You made so many unbiased relevant defining points tonight that I really struggle to reconstruct my flawed vision of global socioeconomic dynamics.
Self-sufficiency is a myth in a global capitalist system. German agriculture in 1880 relied on imported guano, nitrates, and machinery. German industry relied on imported cotton, rubber, and minerals. You cannot isolate a national economy from the world market that sustains it.
Deutsche Bank was founded in 1870 specifically to finance German foreign trade. Dresdner Bank and Commerzbank were active in colonial finance by the 1880s. Lloyd’s of London insured German shipments. British and French shipping lines carried German goods. Capital was never purely national. That is not a lie. That is history.
Rubber was absolutely a thing in 1880. The Congo rubber boom began in the early 1880s. The Amazon rubber boom was in full swing. German chemical firms like BASF and Bayer were already importing rubber for industrial use. Natural rubber was critical for insulation, tires, and machinery. To deny this is to ignore basic industrial history.
Iron ore from Sweden and Spain. Manganese from Russia and Brazil. Copper from Chile and the US. Tin from Southeast Asia. German steel production depended on imported inputs. Colonial and semi-colonial sources supplied those inputs under conditions of unequal exchange. That is the material relation.
Slavery in the US South was colonial exploitation. The cotton that fed Lancashire and the Ruhr was produced by enslaved labor. That is not “access to market.” That is extraction. To separate the two is idealism.
Rivalry within the core does not negate shared benefit from the periphery. Germany challenged British hegemony precisely because it wanted a larger share of colonial extraction. That is not evidence against the system. That is evidence of how the system works.
Debated in historiography. Even if true for some accounting metrics, it ignores strategic benefits: resource access, market control, geopolitical leverage, technological spin-offs. Capital accumulation is not just about balance sheets. It is about power.
Yes. Chinese loans have conditions. But they do not typically demand privatization, austerity, or deregulation. They do not restructure domestic policy to serve foreign capital. That is a material difference. Not perfection. Not innocence. But difference. Conflating mechanism with outcome is bad analysis.
You don’t think rubber was a thing in the 1880s. You think Germany was self-sufficient in a global capitalist system. You think buying cotton from slave plantations is just “market access.” You think core-periphery relations are optional.
I am going to ask this earnestly please don’t be offended: are you by chance a German teenager? It would explain the constant attempts to whitewash German imperial history and the extreme gaps in basic historical knowledge.
If not (and honestly even if you are), then please just read the fucking books. Eric Williams. Walter Rodney. Kwame Nkrumah. Samir Amin. Aimé Césaire. CLR James. Frantz Fanon.
I am not a german teenager, are you a fucking AI? Because you are sounding just like AI following a script of bad training.
“cannot isolate a national economy”, “never purely national”, no shit Sherlock. But we are discussing insignificant parts of a nation wealth. Rubber in 1880 Germany was like 0.2% on GDP if I am being generous. Deutsche Bank is a national bank. By 1880 Germany with no colonial empire was a capital exporter, not importer. Sweden and Spain, your typical african colonies.
Why are we discussing this shit?
Dehumanization by a german nazi. How “unexpected”. They can’t do anything else anyways, only genocide, lose, and bootlick burgerfresser.
Wow, very hostile. Honestly not unexpected after getting caught on some pretty bald-faced lies.
You went from denying rubber existed in 1880 to conceding it was “0.2% of GDP” in one message (not to mind 0.2% is a number pulled directly from your ass alongside being irrelevant to the point). You went from “European banks and shipping insurance wasn’t a thing” to “Deutsche Bank is a national bank” like that refutes anything.
I’d be embarrassed too don’t worry I don’t hold it against you.
However after all this, you still have not engaged the core point: Germany and Italy were integrated into the imperial core even before they had direct colonies. Capital, trade, finance, shipping, insurance, markets, all structured by colonial extraction. It’s really not that complicated. It is basic historical materialism.
The fact that you cannot grasp a systemic analysis, and instead lash out when basic facts are corrected, tells me everything I need to know. Seems I hit the nail on the head as they say (bullseye). 🤣
Learn to read the context when discussing, it is really like chatting with a robot…
CONTEXT: Germany 1880, trying to establishing the relevance to national wealth of rubber imported from colonies.
COMPLETE EXPLANATION: do the math, in 1880 we are before the invention of pneumatic bicycle tire, before the automobile industry, before rubber plantation in Congo and Asia. Global production is 11K tons, almost entirely from the Empire of Brazil, not a colony of a European country, most of which goes to Britain, US and France. At 1880 that is less then 0.2% of GDP for Germany. To me in the context of establishing the reason for Germany wealth being driven by colonial exploitation that is nothing. If for you 0.2%, 0% of which is from a colony, is worth discussing over then you are totally missing the point.
CONTEXT: original quote “European banks, shipping, insurance”. We are talking about the system put in place to facilitate exploitation of colonies.
COMPLETE EXPLANATION: Stressing “European”. Europe was not a thing. Shipping insurance was a thing since medieval age. Was Florence banking system and Genoa shipping insurance in 1300 put in place for exploitation of colonial empires? No, it was put in place to facilitate trade. My mistake in assuming you meant a unified “European” system of exploitation as the alternative was just silly. If you really meant banks and insurance then good for you, on a national level that was a thing and totally irrelevant to the conversation.
CONTEXT: you said “British and French colonies supplied cheap cotton, rubber, minerals”. I asked you which mineral. Your quote is not a quote, I never said that. The context is still colonial exploitation, and by asking which mineral I have implied there is no mineral import from British or French colonies relevant to the conversation.
COMPLETE EXPLANATION: The only mineral not from a European country in your list was tin. Germany had tin deposits on the border with Bohemia, but most of the Tin was from Cornwall. So most of what was true for rubber is true for Tin we are talking a very small portion of GDP most of which was from Britain. The rest was from Malaya
The fact that you cannot grasp a contextual analysis and instead search for futile points to strawman when your points are trash tell me everything I need to know. Seems I hit the nail on the head as they say (bullseye). 🤣
Moving the goalposts is not context. It is deflection. Your original claim was that Germany industrialized without colonial benefit. That is false. The global system Germany operated within was structured by colonial extraction. Even if rubber was “0.2% of GDP” (which is again straight from your ass), it still spectacularly misses the point being made. Capital accumulation is not about raw input percentages. It is about super-profits, protected markets, financial infrastructure, and reinvestment capacity. Colonial trade provided all of that. Isolating one commodity used as an example to dismiss the system is not the dunk you seem to think it is.
Brazil in 1880 was not “not a colony”. It was a semi-colonial economy, formerly Portuguese, integrated into the British imperial economic sphere. Informal empire counts. The cotton, rubber, and minerals that fed European industry came from conditions of unequal exchange. Prices set in London. Shipping controlled by British firms. Contracts enforced by gunboats. That is the material relation. To pretend that “not a formal colony” means “not extraction” is to ignore how imperialism and colonialism actually works.
No one said “Europe” was a unified state. The point was that German capital operated within a European imperial circuit. British shipping, Lloyd’s insurance, French ports, German industrial demand: all part of the same extraction-based system. To isolate “national” banks from that circuit is methodological nationalism. It ignores how capital actually moves. Deutsche Bank financed foreign trade. German firms used British insurance. German goods moved on British ships. That is not “irrelevant”. That is the system.
Cornwall was embedded in the British imperial mining complex. Its profits relied on colonial capital, colonial technology, and colonial markets. The same goes for Spanish iron, Swedish copper, Bohemian manganese. These were not isolated national industries. They operated within a European extractive circuit built on colonial power. Cheap labor from the periphery kept input costs down. Colonial infrastructure lowered shipping costs. Imperial finance provided the credit. That is how European mining stayed profitable.
Germany directly benefited from access to these mines. German steel used Spanish iron. German machinery used Swedish copper. German industry used Cornish tin. The prices, the availability, the reliability of supply, all shaped by imperial relations. To treat these as “just European” inputs is to ignore the global division of labor that made them cheap and accessible. Germany did not need its own colonies to benefit from colonial extraction. It just needed to participate in the system. And it did.
You keep isolating variables to avoid the systemic argument. One commodity. One year. One border. That is cherry-picking to protect a preconceived conclusion.
At this point, continuing is futile. You have shown you will move the goalposts, dismiss facts that inconvenience you, and lash out when basic history is corrected. If you are not willing to engage the argument in good faith, there is no point in further comments.
TL;DR baby’s first dialectical and historical materialist breakdown: Germany in 1880 did not industrialize in a vacuum. It operated within a global capitalist system structured by colonial extraction. Raw materials from the periphery (cotton, rubber, minerals) fed German industry at prices shaped by imperial power. Protected colonial markets absorbed German exports. European finance, shipping, and insurance networks built on extraction facilitated German trade. Super-profits from the colonial system funded reinvestment and innovation in the core. Germany benefited from this system even before it had direct colonies. It helped sustain the system through demand, finance, and participation in the imperial circuit. That is how the material relations worked.
Also ai badjacketing me because you can’t make a coherent point is cringe and you should grow up. The fact you talk so arrogantly on a topic you are so woefully uneducated about is embarrassing and honestly you should be embarrassed, but that’s a good thing. You should channel this embarrassment I hope you feel into learning before speaking to avoid it in the future.
Ok, you won, my original claim that “Germany industrialized without colonial benefit” is false. I am defeated. I will claim that “Germany industrialized with minimal colonial benefit where minimal represent an economical input that is less then 5% of GDP by 1880”.
then I will stop this charade. Have a nice day, king of worthless discussion
You cannot even graciously admit you were wrong. You have to make another bs claim pulled straight from your ass and cover it in sarcasm. “Minimal colonial benefit” defined by an arbitrary GDP percentage you just invented.
This was never about winning or losing. I was hoping that from exposure you might decide to do some research instead of spreading colonial apologism and “smarter Europe” nonsense that borders on race science.
Genuinely, if you just take the time to read the works I recommended and apply a proper analysis to history, you will be much more informed. Less likely to be embarrassed. Less likely to lash out when basic facts are corrected.
I wish you the best in growing up and finishing your education. Hopefully it broadens your horizons.
I am so embarrassed in front of your clearly superior knowledge. You made so many unbiased relevant defining points tonight that I really struggle to reconstruct my flawed vision of global socioeconomic dynamics.
Childish.