I’m curious how you think Israel should respond after 1400 mostly civilians are killed and a couple hundred hostages taken by the government of the territory next to them.
Supposedly they have one of the most effective intelligence services in the world.
Maybe utilize them to find out where the enemy and hostages actually are, and use smaller, more surgical strikes to extract the hostages and eliminate hostile leadership.
You know, instead of indiscriminately bombing civilians.
What would you do? You seem to be defending the murder of random civilians, or at least defensive of the fact that I don’t approve of it, so do you find the current strategy to be acceptable?
Are you unaware of what intelligence services and special forces units are supposed to do? Because if you are aware, then you seem kinda supportive of massive and clearly intentional civilian casualties.
You are apparently unaware of what intelligence services and special forces do. This isn’t an episode of 24. They aren’t using their spy satellites and increasing resolution. And spending special forces into a densely populated area where they would be quickly observed and attacked would just cause them to be killed. Here you can check out about the battle of Mogadishu.
I’m not in support of civilian casualties. I am not in support of war. But when war is brought to you, you cannot just ignore it. Life isn’t a video game. And when you are in charge, every decision could alter the outcome. Special forces cannot put up their hoods and walk with their heads down to disappear into the crowd like this is Assassin’s creed. Special forces work when they are not suspecting you, and when there is a possibility for small precise attacks making major changes.
There is no question that Israel aims to completely remove Gaza’s ability to attack Israel for a long time. Everything else is people arguing over the level of malice. Israel has tried different solutions to stopping attacks. And certainly some people in power use the instability to remain in power on both sides. But, historically, that has not been the majority of Israelis or the government there. The situation after they left Gaza actually put more of those people into power (such as Bibi, who absolutely called what would happen in Gaza… as much as I hate to admit it).
Here is what we know. A big olive branch was rejected and exploited. Waiting it out and dealing with attacks on an individual basis, setting up security precautions, and diplomacy with outside Arab countries has so far failed and allowed for the third biggest terrorist attack in history. They are using what is militarily called rapid dominance. This includes a strong display of force that demoralizes and destabilizes an enemies ability to fight. It aims to reduce the casualties of the ground forces that come after and to shorten the length of the war overall. And that second part is also important here. Israel is a small country. They might be much more advanced, but they still have to deal with all of the same problems as any army concerning morale and resources. What happens if they instead lead with a ground force, but the war drags on and civilians are still dying, but this time it is because wars dragging on also destabilize and cause issues. On top of that, your military is now much weaker and exhausted. And you still have countries outside of Palestine that want to destroy you too.
But all you can see is what is happening. You aren’t actually thinking about the results of alternatives.
If you took and killed my family due to some bullshit ideology, whatever it was, either side, I would nuke you and everyone who shared your ideology without a second thought. So let’s stop trying to act virtuous and just understand why both sides are doing what they’re doing…but one is sure to lose.
So again, this is what you wouldn’t do. What would you do? Do you understand the question? Not sure if I’m being clear enough here. It seems everyone is an expert on the situation in Israel and Palestine until you ask for specifics. So I’m specifically asking What would you do if you were in charge of Israel at the moment?
Everytime I’ve asked this to someone that’s taken a hardline stance I’m met with either “it’s a complex issue” or just completely ignoring the question 😂
I’m curious how the tragic death of 1400 civilians justifies this genocide against an entire ethnic group…
There are many ways to address this problem, without unending airstrikes, and starving out 2 million people.
Invite the UN to come in and secure Gaza militarily
Provide free passage from the West Bank to Gaza or Gaza to the West Bank. Including peacekeeping soldiers from the “less radical” Palestinian government…
Allow civilians to move to the West Bank, and then completely level Gaza. After all the civilians leave. I’m sure it wouldn’t be popular, but it would save lives
Long-term, create economic diplomacy, intertwine the economies so there isn’t such a have have not disparity. Make people think the future is going to be better. Together.
Longer term, if the countries can’t be split, start integrating the populations. South African style apartheid truth and reconciliation on both sides, and get the populations to integrate, if they can’t be separate countries they have to learn to live together.
It wasn’t “tragic deaths”. Hamas terrorists shot indiscriminately on people on a music festival and took about 200 people hostage. It’s murder and terrorism.
You forgot one important step 0: honesty from both sides and a stop of propaganda and people cuddling terrorists.
Okay. So the murder and terrorism of 1400 people justifies the genocide of an ethnicity? I just want to understand where you draw the line. Because apparently we’re already past the genocide line and I want to know where that was
If Israel wants genocide why didn’t they do it already? Why do they let Palestinians live inside of Israel and don’t attack the Westbank with bombs as well?
Because they want an excuse to do it in the eyes of the international community and the less extreme of their own population. So they systematically oppressed the Palestinian population, which of course bred terrorism. They then made it more difficult for a peaceful Palestinian government as well, which made Hamas more powerful.
They didn’t listen to the warnings from Egypt that this attack was coming. Now they have the excuse they were waiting for to genocide the Palestinians.
If your country was being systematically dismantled by a much wealthier more powerful neighbour do you really think that you wouldn’t want to lash out? What Hamas did was terrible but it was a result of the long running actions of Israel
Following your rhetoric Israelis who are predominantly Jewish and Israel which was supposed to be the one safe place for Jews, Israel should have every right to defend themselves. Since they were oppressed and killed since ancient times.
They have the right to defend, not to genocide. The vast vast majority of the people they’ve killed in Gaza have been civilians & they’re committing a war crime by cutting off the water to Gaza. That’s not self defence
According to the UN definition they are already doing it.
You still haven’t answered the core question though, at what point is genocide okay? Where’s the line? Because I’m having trouble reading all the rhetoric, especially some of your posts, and understanding where a population has a right to exist, and when they don’t.
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
Following this definition, Hamas wants to commit genocide and Israel doesn’t. So tell me why do you think genocide is okay when it is targeting Israelis?
I’m not pro Hamas. I do not agree with their ideology.
The Gaza strip situation is genocide by the definition in part a national identity, which is tied to ethnicity, which is tied to religion, is being destroyed and displaced. We just have to look to the political justifications from the military leadership, to see that the intention is to destroy.
And you still have not answered the question, when is genocide okay? Cuz apparently it’s okay now for the Israeli military to wipe Gaza off the map. And I want to know where that line is and you don’t answer that. Why don’t you answer that?
Is the respond of killing 3.5k+ civilian + countless injured + million displaced justified for the 1400 civilian killed + 200 hostage? Is the exchange rate of palestinian life to israeli life these day 2.5:1?
I’m curious on how people could go “it’s too cruel” when they read the news 1400 humans being brutally murdered but when they read the news about the killed civilian from the other side and also the constant terror and murder commited by the illegal settler in west bank they can make out all sort of justification to calm down their heart.
Benjamin Netanyahu and the IDF is truly a genius, they successfully dehumanise the Palestinians so people will defend them.
In reference to a settler murdering someone, even though you didn’t ask, my response is that they should be arrested and if guilty then they should be punished under Israeli law for murder. Doesn’t always happen. But it is what I would do.
But actually answer the question. You’re in power now. What do you do?
giving back west bank, withdraw all the illegal settler from there, pay reparation fee for the damage the illegal settler and IDF caused(for both physical, mental, and property), stop spying in others country, publicly apologise for the decades of atrocity the previous administration caused. In return for them to release the hostage, start deradicalize plan, and sign peace treaty with the backing of UN for long lasting peace within the region.
First a response then I’ll answer your question. Read up on the camp David accords with Clinton. The Israelis were offering like 91% of the land back the green line and trying to find some middle ground concerning Jerusalem. But especially read up about the 2004-05 withdrawal from Gaza. They did with Gaza what you are suggesting with the west bank. And it become a breeding ground for terrorist attacks. Originally the plan was Gaza first, as an olive branch, then the west bank, then further peace negotiations to establish firm borders. But the outcome with Gaza was horrific and all political capital was lost. And Hamas has stated it will not negotiate and will not accept peace deals negotiated by the PA. You cannot suggest things that have been tried and pretend that the past didn’t happen and that things will just work out. Israel has been there, done that.
So acknowledging the real world history of the situation, if I was in charge, then the goal is to change the playing field. Israel did this with Gaza before with the wall they are oft criticized for building. And it stopped all the suicide bombings that had been happening. So I’d have two goals. An even more secure border, probably talking a dmz area, and to wipe out as many known Hamas officials as I possibly can. Their power structure must be so disrupted that they it will take extended time for any organization to happen. This allows for other people (probably Fatah would be the goal) to replace them. Make it clear that my country is going nowhere and that the other side needs a new plan if they want security. After doing these things, then and only then, do we go back to the negotiating table. Do I like these things? No. But again history and my responsibilities. History tells us this can work. General Sherman. WWII with Japan. Is it a guarantee to work? No. But the status quo definitely does not work. And my responsibility is first to provide security for the people in my country. I would certainly take notes from ww2 concerning the rebuilding efforts, but that also required unconditional surrender from the Japanese. So long as there was peace, my government would be first in line to offer assistance (which was an established thing between the PA and Israel… But Hamas changed that. In fact it was their main platforms and why they were elected).
And Wikipedia tends to disagree with you. The issue is more complex and you cannot blame only one of the parties for the outcome.
So your solution is to drop an “atomic bomb” over Gaza in order to get their unconditional surrender? And ”atomic bomb" here is a metaphor. Did it cross your mind that WWII could have been avoided if the treatment of Germany wasn’t so unfair after the WWI and putting them to a corner, desperate people choose desperate solutions, and I strongly believe that if Gazans were treated better, Hamas would have never been elected.
Think about it. And your link with Japan is really terrible, as they had been subject to fire bombs, two atomic bombs, so don’t repeat past mistakes.
My solution is to remove Hamas from any authority. Let them be replaced with a more reasonable authority (Fatah was supposed to have a united government with them but Hamas wouldn’t actually do it). Stabilize and secure my country. And then try to help rebuild Gaza and negotiate firm borders with Palestine.
Now there are definitely people in the Israeli government who don’t believe it can and/or should happen. I know the history of Likud and Begin. I’m aware of the ideas of Revisionist Zionism and Jabotinsky (not really a fan btw). It’s safe to say that if I had been around at the time I definitely would’ve been with the lefty socialist Jews, not with the right wingers. Although even Bibi signed on to Oslo iirc.
I understand that the situation is fucked. But when you are in a fucked situation, you have to deal with it given the constraints of it being fucked. I understand some people on both sides may have bad intentions. But Hamas is platformed as opposed to peace. With Israel, that situation is not the same. Just as the Gaetz doesn’t represent the entire US government, neither does ben Gvir. Israel is a developed state with a secular government and the majority are not out to take over all of Palestine.
Honestly the big difference in opinion here lies in the fact that a lot of people here who are against Israel and screaming genocide really just don’t say what they actually think. That they think Jews have no right to be in Israel and that they should pick up and leave. They know nothing about the history of the region and they just parrot the same shit.
People oppose your government and their policies against Palestinians. People oppose illegal settlements and forceful displacement of people. People oppose Gazans being treated like second class human beings. People oppose human rights violations, carpet bombings entire residential neighbourhoods, and so much more.
Likudis complicit with Hamas, they have never looked for a peaceful solution. Instead they were continuously antagonizing Palestinians. Their rule is fuelled by the hatred for Palestinians by the fear. For that they need to put Palestinians into a corner which they systematically do so that they can generalise the whole population and portray them as blood seeking.
And funnily enough Hamas also needs Likud to survive. They need them for the same reason.
Hamas’ military wing in Gaza is around 30K people. Compare that to 2.3Mln. Mostly from uneducated boys whose whole life were living in pretty shitty conditions. 80% of the population of Gaza depends on humanitarian aid. You can’t even fathom what it’s like living there. And I am sure if you were on the other side of the fence you would have had a completely different mindset.
And you know what the most surprising thing for me is, that Jews as a population have been oppressed during the years so much, and yet you are fine with your government to do exactly that to another population.
This only comes to prove that humanity is dead! We as species won’t survive with this attitude. That history taught us nothing!
They did that. In Gaza. And it went really poorly if you haven’t noticed. Which is actually why settlement in the West Bank started getting much stronger support within the government and from the population at large. So now you’re fighting the war on two fronts?
Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa. Also, it’s not typically the Israeli government that does this. Mostly the Haredi. So how will you do this? And what will occur when you come up with the anti-raiding plan?
Does any of this stop Hamas from attacking the country you’re supposed to be protecting?
You’re an idiot, stop all settlers not just some of them. Gaza and the west bank. If the Israeli government has the power to level Gaza, they have the power reign in the “haredi”. What in the world do you mean by:
Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa
You mean the second-most holy place in Islam?
You’ve very clearly already made up your mind, why ask so many pointed questions if you’re not interested in understanding any other POV?
I’m an idiot. For knowing that the plan was to leave Gaza entirely, then leave the West bank with some settlements being dismantled and some to be dealt with in future negotiations. But the catastrophe that was the Gaza withdrawal halted that plan entirely.
And third holiest site in Islam. But the temple mount which Jews are kept from visiting most of the time, is the holiest site in Judaism. Which is why I said don’t pretend it is only al aqsa.
I’m clearly a supporter of Israel. But I try to understand multiple sides. Doesn’t mean I have to think every side is right. Concerning the temple mount and al aqsa, I would prefer both groups get along and share. I don’t like Bibi and loathe ben Gvir. And while I absolutely do think continuing ahead with a withdrawal plan for west bank would’ve made Israel less safe, I do wish they hadn’t increased settlements.
Seriously how would you feel if someone tomorrow comes to your house and kicks you out. Then puts you in an open air prison, restricts your right of movement immensely, treats you like a second class human being. Are you really so naïve?
If you think that is an adequate description of the history of the area then your problem is clearly a total lack of education or research on the topic.
First, we need a starting point. At what point in history should we consider the people living in the region as indigenous? Concerning the open air prison, that’s mostly used in reference to Gaza. So did Israel put them there or are they indigenous? Also, they have a border with Egypt too. Why is that border not working out?
I’m not naive. I am fully aware that the entire region has a very complicated history. One that you can’t distill into a couple of lazy catch phrases. And there is a mix of good and bad things for everyone involved. You say Israel treats then as second class. Have you ever read the Hamas charter? Especially the pre 2017 charter. See what it says about women, Jews, religion. See what it implies about LGBT rights.
You call me naive. But, ask yourself, what history do you know of the region. And what are things you’re just parroting?
Over 1000 children alone have been brutally murdered by the terrorist nation of Israel since they declared this war only a few days ago.
They’re doing to Palestine what the Nazis did to them, only this time the world is watching and not even looking away. They’re encouraging it, and even sending in resources to help them do it, and punishing people for even speaking out against it.
They don’t deserve to even mention Auschwitz after this. There are plenty of Jews out there who are opposed to it whose sympathies about WWII will forever stay with us. But not these… Copycats.
The Holocaust involved the Nazis gathering up whole populations, unprovoked, and sending them to ghettos, concentration camps, and then extermination camps. While the world population has nearly quadrupled since WW2, the Jewish population only just reached their pre-holocaust levels recently. They starved them, worked them to death, tortured and experimented on them, and then tried to murder the rest en masse with gas.
Gaza certainly has a blockade. And I do not approve of everything that Israel does, even when I can understand the rationale. But let us be absolutely clear. That blockade is absolutely less controlled than even the ghettos of Warsaw. Not to mention, they share a border with an entirely different country with whom they have been free to form diplomatic relations with and could have had freedom of movement, supplies, etc through for 18 years now. Longer, really but I’ll use the minimum value. But they haven’t even done that. Why? Because the group from Hamas formed also performed terrorism in Egypt.
At no point has any of this been unprovoked. At no point has this looked anything like Auschwitz. I have repeatedly seen the population density of Gaza brought up (6,507/km2). The Warsaw ghetto had 450,000 people in 3 km2. So in case you don’t like math, that’s about 150,000/km2.
Auschwitz, which apparently I shouldn’t mention but I’m going to, had at least 1.3 million prisoners. At least 1.1 million were killed. That was one camp out of several.
The situation in Gaza is terrible and sad. But you don’t get say it is the same as the Holocaust. That Israel is doing the same thing. This isn’t unprovoked. Even now, they are holding hostages. They’ve continued to fire rockets. They have dug up their own infrastructure to make rockets. At no point have they even tried to be self sufficient. Nor have they tried… not attacking Israel. Attacking Israel (actually, attacking the Jews more generally according to the charter), establishing an Islamic state in the entire region and removing Israel from the map. That’s the platform on which Hamas was elected. Show me where the Jews of Europe took over Poland and attacked Germany. Show me where Germany dealt with those attacks for decades, including providing utilities and healthcare to Poland during that time.
I will not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I will assume you are simply an uneducated fool who wants to push a narrative, rather than a malicious antisemite. The un-cited number of deaths (I’m guessing the only source you’ll find is the Hamas government… the one that said over 500 died after Israel bombed a hospital a couple days back) that you stated don’t even compare to just the Warsaw Ghetto. The death toll for the entire conflict in Israel and Palestine don’t even compare to just the deaths in the Warsaw Ghetto. The situation is entirely different. Your statement is absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed. You can argue and oppose Israel’s tactics. You can even argue that this fits some definitions of ethnic cleansing if you want. But you don’t get to say what you said without being an absolutely disgusting person.
So your whole reasoning is that because Jewish people have been oppressed in the past give them a carte blanche to oppress other people?
Didn’t you think that Hamas is in power because of the ill treatment and oppression of the Palestinians?
Do you think that the Nazi party would come into force if it wasn’t the Versailles treaty, that put the German people into a corner, with hyperinflation and no hope in sight. Can’t you see the parallels?
When did violence have given birth to something good?
Where did I say anything about them having carte blanche to oppress? Where did I say their oppression gave them any rights? I didn’t. I said that why9 was disgusting for what they said and explained why.
And no. I do not think Hamas is only in power due to things Israel has done. Beyond existing. The Muslim brotherhood existed before Israel. They have spring up in most countries that have a major Muslim population as Islamic extremists. They want a unified Muslim state under Sharia law. Even if Israel did not exist, Hamas would likely still exist in the region in some form telling the ruling powers they aren’t Islamic enough. And killing people. Gay people. Women who want to have equal rights. Atheists. People who decide they don’t want to be Muslim. World leaders who sign peace treaties.
Yeah it’s pretty accepted now that the harsh punishments post WWI created the perfect environment for ww2. But it is also accepted that appeasement to Germany to prevent ww2 was a really bad idea as well. Parallels only go so far. I was not drawing a parallel in my above comment. I was explaining how very different the Holocaust was from the Palestinian territories.
Umm violence ended pretty much every war. Civil war and slavery and all that (in the U.S.). WW2 (that ending was real violent). Non-violence is definitely preferable, but it isn’t always an option.
He is just being pedantic and downright ignoring the people that actually replied to his question. So he is clearly not arguing in good faith. Downvote is more than justified
By killing more than 4000 civilians, causing a humanitarian crisis on purpose, carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods and displacing hundreds of thousands of people.
I’m curious how you think Israel should respond after 1400 mostly civilians are killed and a couple hundred hostages taken by the government of the territory next to them.
Not blow up the homes and businesses of a bunch of random civilians who had nothing to do with that?
You said what you wouldn’t do. But you didn’t actually answer the question. What would you do?
Supposedly they have one of the most effective intelligence services in the world.
Maybe utilize them to find out where the enemy and hostages actually are, and use smaller, more surgical strikes to extract the hostages and eliminate hostile leadership.
You know, instead of indiscriminately bombing civilians.
What would you do? You seem to be defending the murder of random civilians, or at least defensive of the fact that I don’t approve of it, so do you find the current strategy to be acceptable?
Are you unaware of what intelligence services and special forces units are supposed to do? Because if you are aware, then you seem kinda supportive of massive and clearly intentional civilian casualties.
You are apparently unaware of what intelligence services and special forces do. This isn’t an episode of 24. They aren’t using their spy satellites and increasing resolution. And spending special forces into a densely populated area where they would be quickly observed and attacked would just cause them to be killed. Here you can check out about the battle of Mogadishu.
I’m not in support of civilian casualties. I am not in support of war. But when war is brought to you, you cannot just ignore it. Life isn’t a video game. And when you are in charge, every decision could alter the outcome. Special forces cannot put up their hoods and walk with their heads down to disappear into the crowd like this is Assassin’s creed. Special forces work when they are not suspecting you, and when there is a possibility for small precise attacks making major changes.
There is no question that Israel aims to completely remove Gaza’s ability to attack Israel for a long time. Everything else is people arguing over the level of malice. Israel has tried different solutions to stopping attacks. And certainly some people in power use the instability to remain in power on both sides. But, historically, that has not been the majority of Israelis or the government there. The situation after they left Gaza actually put more of those people into power (such as Bibi, who absolutely called what would happen in Gaza… as much as I hate to admit it).
Here is what we know. A big olive branch was rejected and exploited. Waiting it out and dealing with attacks on an individual basis, setting up security precautions, and diplomacy with outside Arab countries has so far failed and allowed for the third biggest terrorist attack in history. They are using what is militarily called rapid dominance. This includes a strong display of force that demoralizes and destabilizes an enemies ability to fight. It aims to reduce the casualties of the ground forces that come after and to shorten the length of the war overall. And that second part is also important here. Israel is a small country. They might be much more advanced, but they still have to deal with all of the same problems as any army concerning morale and resources. What happens if they instead lead with a ground force, but the war drags on and civilians are still dying, but this time it is because wars dragging on also destabilize and cause issues. On top of that, your military is now much weaker and exhausted. And you still have countries outside of Palestine that want to destroy you too.
But all you can see is what is happening. You aren’t actually thinking about the results of alternatives.
If you took and killed my family due to some bullshit ideology, whatever it was, either side, I would nuke you and everyone who shared your ideology without a second thought. So let’s stop trying to act virtuous and just understand why both sides are doing what they’re doing…but one is sure to lose.
And now you know why it’s Israel’s fault that so many people join Hamas. Congrats.
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So again, this is what you wouldn’t do. What would you do? Do you understand the question? Not sure if I’m being clear enough here. It seems everyone is an expert on the situation in Israel and Palestine until you ask for specifics. So I’m specifically asking What would you do if you were in charge of Israel at the moment?
Everytime I’ve asked this to someone that’s taken a hardline stance I’m met with either “it’s a complex issue” or just completely ignoring the question 😂
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So you’re calling for ethnic cleansing then?
Also I don’t downvote anyone really. And I’m kbin so I doubt it’d show up if I did.
Hey there, I just joined this conversation. BUT WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
I’m curious how the tragic death of 1400 civilians justifies this genocide against an entire ethnic group…
There are many ways to address this problem, without unending airstrikes, and starving out 2 million people.
Invite the UN to come in and secure Gaza militarily
Provide free passage from the West Bank to Gaza or Gaza to the West Bank. Including peacekeeping soldiers from the “less radical” Palestinian government…
Allow civilians to move to the West Bank, and then completely level Gaza. After all the civilians leave. I’m sure it wouldn’t be popular, but it would save lives
Long-term, create economic diplomacy, intertwine the economies so there isn’t such a have have not disparity. Make people think the future is going to be better. Together.
Longer term, if the countries can’t be split, start integrating the populations. South African style apartheid truth and reconciliation on both sides, and get the populations to integrate, if they can’t be separate countries they have to learn to live together.
It wasn’t “tragic deaths”. Hamas terrorists shot indiscriminately on people on a music festival and took about 200 people hostage. It’s murder and terrorism. You forgot one important step 0: honesty from both sides and a stop of propaganda and people cuddling terrorists.
Okay. So the murder and terrorism of 1400 people justifies the genocide of an ethnicity? I just want to understand where you draw the line. Because apparently we’re already past the genocide line and I want to know where that was
If Israel wants genocide why didn’t they do it already? Why do they let Palestinians live inside of Israel and don’t attack the Westbank with bombs as well?
Because they want an excuse to do it in the eyes of the international community and the less extreme of their own population. So they systematically oppressed the Palestinian population, which of course bred terrorism. They then made it more difficult for a peaceful Palestinian government as well, which made Hamas more powerful.
They didn’t listen to the warnings from Egypt that this attack was coming. Now they have the excuse they were waiting for to genocide the Palestinians.
If your country was being systematically dismantled by a much wealthier more powerful neighbour do you really think that you wouldn’t want to lash out? What Hamas did was terrible but it was a result of the long running actions of Israel
Following your rhetoric Israelis who are predominantly Jewish and Israel which was supposed to be the one safe place for Jews, Israel should have every right to defend themselves. Since they were oppressed and killed since ancient times.
They have the right to defend, not to genocide. The vast vast majority of the people they’ve killed in Gaza have been civilians & they’re committing a war crime by cutting off the water to Gaza. That’s not self defence
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
According to the UN definition they are already doing it.
You still haven’t answered the core question though, at what point is genocide okay? Where’s the line? Because I’m having trouble reading all the rhetoric, especially some of your posts, and understanding where a population has a right to exist, and when they don’t.
The UN definition:
Following this definition, Hamas wants to commit genocide and Israel doesn’t. So tell me why do you think genocide is okay when it is targeting Israelis?
I’m not pro Hamas. I do not agree with their ideology.
The Gaza strip situation is genocide by the definition in part a national identity, which is tied to ethnicity, which is tied to religion, is being destroyed and displaced. We just have to look to the political justifications from the military leadership, to see that the intention is to destroy.
And you still have not answered the question, when is genocide okay? Cuz apparently it’s okay now for the Israeli military to wipe Gaza off the map. And I want to know where that line is and you don’t answer that. Why don’t you answer that?
You are building a strawman. Genocide is never okay, I believe Hamas is trying to commit genocide and Israel is not.
Is the respond of killing 3.5k+ civilian + countless injured + million displaced justified for the 1400 civilian killed + 200 hostage? Is the exchange rate of palestinian life to israeli life these day 2.5:1?
I’m curious on how people could go “it’s too cruel” when they read the news 1400 humans being brutally murdered but when they read the news about the killed civilian from the other side and also the constant terror and murder commited by the illegal settler in west bank they can make out all sort of justification to calm down their heart.
Benjamin Netanyahu and the IDF is truly a genius, they successfully dehumanise the Palestinians so people will defend them.
You didn’t answer the question.
In reference to a settler murdering someone, even though you didn’t ask, my response is that they should be arrested and if guilty then they should be punished under Israeli law for murder. Doesn’t always happen. But it is what I would do.
But actually answer the question. You’re in power now. What do you do?
giving back west bank, withdraw all the illegal settler from there, pay reparation fee for the damage the illegal settler and IDF caused(for both physical, mental, and property), stop spying in others country, publicly apologise for the decades of atrocity the previous administration caused. In return for them to release the hostage, start deradicalize plan, and sign peace treaty with the backing of UN for long lasting peace within the region.
What would YOU do if you’re in power?
First a response then I’ll answer your question. Read up on the camp David accords with Clinton. The Israelis were offering like 91% of the land back the green line and trying to find some middle ground concerning Jerusalem. But especially read up about the 2004-05 withdrawal from Gaza. They did with Gaza what you are suggesting with the west bank. And it become a breeding ground for terrorist attacks. Originally the plan was Gaza first, as an olive branch, then the west bank, then further peace negotiations to establish firm borders. But the outcome with Gaza was horrific and all political capital was lost. And Hamas has stated it will not negotiate and will not accept peace deals negotiated by the PA. You cannot suggest things that have been tried and pretend that the past didn’t happen and that things will just work out. Israel has been there, done that.
So acknowledging the real world history of the situation, if I was in charge, then the goal is to change the playing field. Israel did this with Gaza before with the wall they are oft criticized for building. And it stopped all the suicide bombings that had been happening. So I’d have two goals. An even more secure border, probably talking a dmz area, and to wipe out as many known Hamas officials as I possibly can. Their power structure must be so disrupted that they it will take extended time for any organization to happen. This allows for other people (probably Fatah would be the goal) to replace them. Make it clear that my country is going nowhere and that the other side needs a new plan if they want security. After doing these things, then and only then, do we go back to the negotiating table. Do I like these things? No. But again history and my responsibilities. History tells us this can work. General Sherman. WWII with Japan. Is it a guarantee to work? No. But the status quo definitely does not work. And my responsibility is first to provide security for the people in my country. I would certainly take notes from ww2 concerning the rebuilding efforts, but that also required unconditional surrender from the Japanese. So long as there was peace, my government would be first in line to offer assistance (which was an established thing between the PA and Israel… But Hamas changed that. In fact it was their main platforms and why they were elected).
And Wikipedia tends to disagree with you. The issue is more complex and you cannot blame only one of the parties for the outcome.
So your solution is to drop an “atomic bomb” over Gaza in order to get their unconditional surrender? And ”atomic bomb" here is a metaphor. Did it cross your mind that WWII could have been avoided if the treatment of Germany wasn’t so unfair after the WWI and putting them to a corner, desperate people choose desperate solutions, and I strongly believe that if Gazans were treated better, Hamas would have never been elected.
Think about it. And your link with Japan is really terrible, as they had been subject to fire bombs, two atomic bombs, so don’t repeat past mistakes.
My solution is to remove Hamas from any authority. Let them be replaced with a more reasonable authority (Fatah was supposed to have a united government with them but Hamas wouldn’t actually do it). Stabilize and secure my country. And then try to help rebuild Gaza and negotiate firm borders with Palestine.
Now there are definitely people in the Israeli government who don’t believe it can and/or should happen. I know the history of Likud and Begin. I’m aware of the ideas of Revisionist Zionism and Jabotinsky (not really a fan btw). It’s safe to say that if I had been around at the time I definitely would’ve been with the lefty socialist Jews, not with the right wingers. Although even Bibi signed on to Oslo iirc.
I understand that the situation is fucked. But when you are in a fucked situation, you have to deal with it given the constraints of it being fucked. I understand some people on both sides may have bad intentions. But Hamas is platformed as opposed to peace. With Israel, that situation is not the same. Just as the Gaetz doesn’t represent the entire US government, neither does ben Gvir. Israel is a developed state with a secular government and the majority are not out to take over all of Palestine.
Honestly the big difference in opinion here lies in the fact that a lot of people here who are against Israel and screaming genocide really just don’t say what they actually think. That they think Jews have no right to be in Israel and that they should pick up and leave. They know nothing about the history of the region and they just parrot the same shit.
People oppose your government and their policies against Palestinians. People oppose illegal settlements and forceful displacement of people. People oppose Gazans being treated like second class human beings. People oppose human rights violations, carpet bombings entire residential neighbourhoods, and so much more.
Likudis complicit with Hamas, they have never looked for a peaceful solution. Instead they were continuously antagonizing Palestinians. Their rule is fuelled by the hatred for Palestinians by the fear. For that they need to put Palestinians into a corner which they systematically do so that they can generalise the whole population and portray them as blood seeking.
And funnily enough Hamas also needs Likud to survive. They need them for the same reason.
Hamas’ military wing in Gaza is around 30K people. Compare that to 2.3Mln. Mostly from uneducated boys whose whole life were living in pretty shitty conditions. 80% of the population of Gaza depends on humanitarian aid. You can’t even fathom what it’s like living there. And I am sure if you were on the other side of the fence you would have had a completely different mindset.
And you know what the most surprising thing for me is, that Jews as a population have been oppressed during the years so much, and yet you are fine with your government to do exactly that to another population.
This only comes to prove that humanity is dead! We as species won’t survive with this attitude. That history taught us nothing!
Stop settlements, then expel the settlers
Stop raiding Al-Aqsa
That alone would be a definitive improvement
They did that. In Gaza. And it went really poorly if you haven’t noticed. Which is actually why settlement in the West Bank started getting much stronger support within the government and from the population at large. So now you’re fighting the war on two fronts?
Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa. Also, it’s not typically the Israeli government that does this. Mostly the Haredi. So how will you do this? And what will occur when you come up with the anti-raiding plan?
Does any of this stop Hamas from attacking the country you’re supposed to be protecting?
So what have you accomplished?
You’re an idiot, stop all settlers not just some of them. Gaza and the west bank. If the Israeli government has the power to level Gaza, they have the power reign in the “haredi”. What in the world do you mean by:
You mean the second-most holy place in Islam?
You’ve very clearly already made up your mind, why ask so many pointed questions if you’re not interested in understanding any other POV?
I’m an idiot. For knowing that the plan was to leave Gaza entirely, then leave the West bank with some settlements being dismantled and some to be dealt with in future negotiations. But the catastrophe that was the Gaza withdrawal halted that plan entirely.
And third holiest site in Islam. But the temple mount which Jews are kept from visiting most of the time, is the holiest site in Judaism. Which is why I said don’t pretend it is only al aqsa.
I’m clearly a supporter of Israel. But I try to understand multiple sides. Doesn’t mean I have to think every side is right. Concerning the temple mount and al aqsa, I would prefer both groups get along and share. I don’t like Bibi and loathe ben Gvir. And while I absolutely do think continuing ahead with a withdrawal plan for west bank would’ve made Israel less safe, I do wish they hadn’t increased settlements.
Seriously how would you feel if someone tomorrow comes to your house and kicks you out. Then puts you in an open air prison, restricts your right of movement immensely, treats you like a second class human being. Are you really so naïve?
If you think that is an adequate description of the history of the area then your problem is clearly a total lack of education or research on the topic.
First, we need a starting point. At what point in history should we consider the people living in the region as indigenous? Concerning the open air prison, that’s mostly used in reference to Gaza. So did Israel put them there or are they indigenous? Also, they have a border with Egypt too. Why is that border not working out?
I’m not naive. I am fully aware that the entire region has a very complicated history. One that you can’t distill into a couple of lazy catch phrases. And there is a mix of good and bad things for everyone involved. You say Israel treats then as second class. Have you ever read the Hamas charter? Especially the pre 2017 charter. See what it says about women, Jews, religion. See what it implies about LGBT rights.
You call me naive. But, ask yourself, what history do you know of the region. And what are things you’re just parroting?
Over 1000 children alone have been brutally murdered by the terrorist nation of Israel since they declared this war only a few days ago.
They’re doing to Palestine what the Nazis did to them, only this time the world is watching and not even looking away. They’re encouraging it, and even sending in resources to help them do it, and punishing people for even speaking out against it.
They don’t deserve to even mention Auschwitz after this. There are plenty of Jews out there who are opposed to it whose sympathies about WWII will forever stay with us. But not these… Copycats.
The Holocaust involved the Nazis gathering up whole populations, unprovoked, and sending them to ghettos, concentration camps, and then extermination camps. While the world population has nearly quadrupled since WW2, the Jewish population only just reached their pre-holocaust levels recently. They starved them, worked them to death, tortured and experimented on them, and then tried to murder the rest en masse with gas.
Gaza certainly has a blockade. And I do not approve of everything that Israel does, even when I can understand the rationale. But let us be absolutely clear. That blockade is absolutely less controlled than even the ghettos of Warsaw. Not to mention, they share a border with an entirely different country with whom they have been free to form diplomatic relations with and could have had freedom of movement, supplies, etc through for 18 years now. Longer, really but I’ll use the minimum value. But they haven’t even done that. Why? Because the group from Hamas formed also performed terrorism in Egypt.
At no point has any of this been unprovoked. At no point has this looked anything like Auschwitz. I have repeatedly seen the population density of Gaza brought up (6,507/km2). The Warsaw ghetto had 450,000 people in 3 km2. So in case you don’t like math, that’s about 150,000/km2.
Auschwitz, which apparently I shouldn’t mention but I’m going to, had at least 1.3 million prisoners. At least 1.1 million were killed. That was one camp out of several.
The situation in Gaza is terrible and sad. But you don’t get say it is the same as the Holocaust. That Israel is doing the same thing. This isn’t unprovoked. Even now, they are holding hostages. They’ve continued to fire rockets. They have dug up their own infrastructure to make rockets. At no point have they even tried to be self sufficient. Nor have they tried… not attacking Israel. Attacking Israel (actually, attacking the Jews more generally according to the charter), establishing an Islamic state in the entire region and removing Israel from the map. That’s the platform on which Hamas was elected. Show me where the Jews of Europe took over Poland and attacked Germany. Show me where Germany dealt with those attacks for decades, including providing utilities and healthcare to Poland during that time.
I will not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I will assume you are simply an uneducated fool who wants to push a narrative, rather than a malicious antisemite. The un-cited number of deaths (I’m guessing the only source you’ll find is the Hamas government… the one that said over 500 died after Israel bombed a hospital a couple days back) that you stated don’t even compare to just the Warsaw Ghetto. The death toll for the entire conflict in Israel and Palestine don’t even compare to just the deaths in the Warsaw Ghetto. The situation is entirely different. Your statement is absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed. You can argue and oppose Israel’s tactics. You can even argue that this fits some definitions of ethnic cleansing if you want. But you don’t get to say what you said without being an absolutely disgusting person.
So your whole reasoning is that because Jewish people have been oppressed in the past give them a carte blanche to oppress other people?
Didn’t you think that Hamas is in power because of the ill treatment and oppression of the Palestinians?
Do you think that the Nazi party would come into force if it wasn’t the Versailles treaty, that put the German people into a corner, with hyperinflation and no hope in sight. Can’t you see the parallels?
When did violence have given birth to something good?
Where did I say anything about them having carte blanche to oppress? Where did I say their oppression gave them any rights? I didn’t. I said that why9 was disgusting for what they said and explained why.
And no. I do not think Hamas is only in power due to things Israel has done. Beyond existing. The Muslim brotherhood existed before Israel. They have spring up in most countries that have a major Muslim population as Islamic extremists. They want a unified Muslim state under Sharia law. Even if Israel did not exist, Hamas would likely still exist in the region in some form telling the ruling powers they aren’t Islamic enough. And killing people. Gay people. Women who want to have equal rights. Atheists. People who decide they don’t want to be Muslim. World leaders who sign peace treaties.
Yeah it’s pretty accepted now that the harsh punishments post WWI created the perfect environment for ww2. But it is also accepted that appeasement to Germany to prevent ww2 was a really bad idea as well. Parallels only go so far. I was not drawing a parallel in my above comment. I was explaining how very different the Holocaust was from the Palestinian territories.
Umm violence ended pretty much every war. Civil war and slavery and all that (in the U.S.). WW2 (that ending was real violent). Non-violence is definitely preferable, but it isn’t always an option.
It’s a fair question folks. Stop with the downvotes. Answer it, or don’t.
He is just being pedantic and downright ignoring the people that actually replied to his question. So he is clearly not arguing in good faith. Downvote is more than justified
How am I being pedantic, and I’ve responded to almost everyone who actually said what they would do.
By killing more than 4000 civilians, causing a humanitarian crisis on purpose, carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods and displacing hundreds of thousands of people.
So in what world that’s fair?
Jokes on them. I’m on kbin so I don’t even see the downvotes.
So brave