Have you not seen that I have conceded the point that people should at least go vote?
Is that not what you want? Or do you want people to vote a very specific way and then if you do how much energy should people spend trying to accomplish that? And finally how would this attempt to be any different from any of the other attempts that we’ve done the last 20 plus years that were not effective
Have you not seen that I have conceded the point that people should at least go vote?
And yet you keep commenting to discourage people to do so. Would you call me out if I said no to show up to a meeting on organizing a garden because its not going to feed everyone? You would (and should)
I simply Advocate that people shouldn’t waste their time advocating for the Democrats or trying to convince people to vote. There are other places where our time is better utilized actually helping our community rather than wasting our breath on a political group that does not care about us and will not save us.
As far as your example it’s more like a group deciding they want to grow lemons in Colorado to feed the homeless and me doing my best to Advocate they don’t do that because it’s a literal waste of time.
I simply Advocate that people shouldn’t waste their time advocating for the Democrats
And I am not. I am saying we need to vote for progressives where possible, and harm reduction where our options are more limited.
There are other places where our time is better utilized actually helping our community rather than wasting our breath on a political group that does not care about us and will not save us.
Do you want to screenshot where I said that this is not important? And you will never have a political group to help you and expand your efforts because you are not building one. And you are making life difficult for your allies by not doing so, what does that say about your support in the fight in the class war?
Yes they should vote for the most radical candidate that will bring the most benefit to workers regardless of the party.
You keep saying that electoralism is one of the most important fronts for the class war.
I’d be very happy to go pull it out of a screenshot for you.
I disagree. I think electoralism should be practiced only in so far as we can get something pragmatically out of it. This of course would mean advocating for people like Zohran Mamdani but also be willing to call him out for playing to corporate interests over those of the community. Frankly I’m super excited for him to get elected. It’s going to be a wonderful example of the ineffectiveness of electoralism to actually get anything done. And if I’m wrong that’s even better because the material conditions actively get better for people.
Currently I don’t think we’ll get anything out of the Democrats. I don’t think they’ll roll back any of the Trump changes and it would just be a pause before the next fascist Administration rolls in.
Liberals have no idea where to put in their time and effort when it comes to making changes politically and it shows throughout this entire thread. You know you should at least read the commie books since they have a ton of information on how to properly organize a community and how to utilize their local power including when to use electoralism.
You keep saying that electoralism is one of the most important fronts for the class war.
So what about that statement negates the importance of other fronts?
I think electoralism should be practiced only in so far as we can get something pragmatically out of it.
100% agree and the only way you will is to engage with it and build out the critical mass of progressives; which we have not done.
Liberals have no idea where to put in their time and effort when it comes to making changes politically and it shows throughout this entire thread. You know you should at least read the commie books since they have a ton of information on how to properly organize a community and how to utilize their local power including when to use electoralism.
Says the guy that would rather spend an afternoon buying a jacket to insult fellow allies than to vote to help our causes. Like i said it is just one [important] front in the class war. And again, voting helps minimize the hostility you will get from city hall and state capital; which gives you more room for your local organizing. You might be privileged and unaffected, but your comrades are and you keeps saying you won’t do it for them.
I get why you feel the DNC is gross; notice I never said the contrary? Still war is uncomfortable comrade, be a trooper and pull your weight in the fight. Sometimes that means you get to elect a progressive. Sometimes it means harm reduction. PLA had a famous retreat not a grand stand. You need to live to fight another day not surrender because the ideal outcome is not happening tomorrow. We are counting on you and you are letting us down with your rhetoric and behavior.
That was a good play trying to tug on my heartstrings with the PLA except they’re not actually a good model to replicate in the Quest for liberation. Nice try though.
It would have been better for you to quote Lenin.
You still can’t let the sarcastic comment about a jacket go. Besides I would not waste my time buying a jacket I would make my own. I am a proud communist after all.
Being pragmatic about voting is not the same as investing time into electoralism. Being pragmatic about voting means voting in the working class candidate always regardless of their chance of winning. Or voting in a policy that will help uplift the working class. Thats it.
You should spend literally no more time than that on voting.
You should not waste your time trying to create policies or trying to push them through the parliamentarian process. It is a Fool’s errand and a waste of time. Attempting to push policy through that will benefit the working class against the capitalistic interest is basically just a waste of time, money, and energy. The capitalist literally built the system so that it would not work that way and it could not be used against them in that way. Something that Rosa Luxembourg addresses in her book reform or revolution.
If your local organization wants a certain person to win then yes they obviously should spend some time on electoralism. Probably about 10% of their time doing some sort of propaganda for their chosen candidate. The rest of the time they should be doing other much more useful things like collecting donations to feed the hungry in their community, or finding beds and shelters that are open for the homeless folk in their community, or educating the masses on communist Theory so that they gain class consciousness.
These are the things we should be focused on not getting people elected. Thus electoralism is not a major front at all and hardly worth considering when faced with the other monumental tasks that must be done in order to facilitate the rise of a working class party.
That was a good play trying to tug on my heartstrings with the PLA except they’re not actually a good model to replicate in the Quest for liberation. Nice try though.
My point with it is that they were an underdog group with increasingly limited options, and they believed in what they were doing. They did what they needed to to pull ahead, and it was uncomfortable.
You don’t go to war with the army you want, nor the partners you want. You go with what you have and make due. Make of that metaphor what you need for elections and why minimizing harm is important. If you are not willing to soldier on for that; then you are not helping us win the class war. That makes you not very serious. The alt right has upped the ante several times now and you are still not sure about what you really want to do, or if you can spare an evening to vote and help others outside of your state and county.
Like I said. I get why you are unhappy about the lesser evil, but you are leaving many of your fellow socialists and lefties out to hang and be defeated in detail. The NYC elections are exiting, but we need more than just islands of progressivism.
I have pointed out numerous times how this strategy is just a repeat of the same electoral strategy that radical liberals have been engaging in for the better part of 20 years.
This is clearly not a winning strategy. You’re not being pragmatic you’re being insane because you continue to do the same thing expecting a different result while watching our government inch closer to fascism.
Pragmatically voting for minimizing harm means voting in the most working class candidate possible because that’s what we should all do regardless of party and vote for the most Progressive policies to uplift Working Class People. Anything past that is generally a waste of time.
If there’s a candidate a particular group is interested in sure they could spend some of their time doing electoral politics but they have additional responsibilities they have to do which are far more important and then spreading the propaganda of whatever candidate they’re trying to get voted in.
Like I said before education is incredibly important to help build the working class party and an educated working class would vote for the working class candidate regardless of party.
To your point you don’t get to pick who the generals are either. Nor do you get to pick who your comrades are or what the proper strategies are. Sometimes we have to conform to reality which I would argue that you are not.
Have you not seen that I have conceded the point that people should at least go vote?
Is that not what you want? Or do you want people to vote a very specific way and then if you do how much energy should people spend trying to accomplish that? And finally how would this attempt to be any different from any of the other attempts that we’ve done the last 20 plus years that were not effective
And yet you keep commenting to discourage people to do so. Would you call me out if I said no to show up to a meeting on organizing a garden because its not going to feed everyone? You would (and should)
I simply Advocate that people shouldn’t waste their time advocating for the Democrats or trying to convince people to vote. There are other places where our time is better utilized actually helping our community rather than wasting our breath on a political group that does not care about us and will not save us.
As far as your example it’s more like a group deciding they want to grow lemons in Colorado to feed the homeless and me doing my best to Advocate they don’t do that because it’s a literal waste of time.
And I am not. I am saying we need to vote for progressives where possible, and harm reduction where our options are more limited.
Do you want to screenshot where I said that this is not important? And you will never have a political group to help you and expand your efforts because you are not building one. And you are making life difficult for your allies by not doing so, what does that say about your support in the fight in the class war?
Tankies are not serious people.
Yes they should vote for the most radical candidate that will bring the most benefit to workers regardless of the party.
You keep saying that electoralism is one of the most important fronts for the class war.
I’d be very happy to go pull it out of a screenshot for you.
I disagree. I think electoralism should be practiced only in so far as we can get something pragmatically out of it. This of course would mean advocating for people like Zohran Mamdani but also be willing to call him out for playing to corporate interests over those of the community. Frankly I’m super excited for him to get elected. It’s going to be a wonderful example of the ineffectiveness of electoralism to actually get anything done. And if I’m wrong that’s even better because the material conditions actively get better for people.
Currently I don’t think we’ll get anything out of the Democrats. I don’t think they’ll roll back any of the Trump changes and it would just be a pause before the next fascist Administration rolls in.
Liberals have no idea where to put in their time and effort when it comes to making changes politically and it shows throughout this entire thread. You know you should at least read the commie books since they have a ton of information on how to properly organize a community and how to utilize their local power including when to use electoralism.
So what about that statement negates the importance of other fronts?
100% agree and the only way you will is to engage with it and build out the critical mass of progressives; which we have not done.
Says the guy that would rather spend an afternoon buying a jacket to insult fellow allies than to vote to help our causes. Like i said it is just one [important] front in the class war. And again, voting helps minimize the hostility you will get from city hall and state capital; which gives you more room for your local organizing. You might be privileged and unaffected, but your comrades are and you keeps saying you won’t do it for them.
I get why you feel the DNC is gross; notice I never said the contrary? Still war is uncomfortable comrade, be a trooper and pull your weight in the fight. Sometimes that means you get to elect a progressive. Sometimes it means harm reduction. PLA had a famous retreat not a grand stand. You need to live to fight another day not surrender because the ideal outcome is not happening tomorrow. We are counting on you and you are letting us down with your rhetoric and behavior.
That was a good play trying to tug on my heartstrings with the PLA except they’re not actually a good model to replicate in the Quest for liberation. Nice try though.
It would have been better for you to quote Lenin.
You still can’t let the sarcastic comment about a jacket go. Besides I would not waste my time buying a jacket I would make my own. I am a proud communist after all.
Being pragmatic about voting is not the same as investing time into electoralism. Being pragmatic about voting means voting in the working class candidate always regardless of their chance of winning. Or voting in a policy that will help uplift the working class. Thats it.
You should spend literally no more time than that on voting.
You should not waste your time trying to create policies or trying to push them through the parliamentarian process. It is a Fool’s errand and a waste of time. Attempting to push policy through that will benefit the working class against the capitalistic interest is basically just a waste of time, money, and energy. The capitalist literally built the system so that it would not work that way and it could not be used against them in that way. Something that Rosa Luxembourg addresses in her book reform or revolution.
If your local organization wants a certain person to win then yes they obviously should spend some time on electoralism. Probably about 10% of their time doing some sort of propaganda for their chosen candidate. The rest of the time they should be doing other much more useful things like collecting donations to feed the hungry in their community, or finding beds and shelters that are open for the homeless folk in their community, or educating the masses on communist Theory so that they gain class consciousness.
These are the things we should be focused on not getting people elected. Thus electoralism is not a major front at all and hardly worth considering when faced with the other monumental tasks that must be done in order to facilitate the rise of a working class party.
My point with it is that they were an underdog group with increasingly limited options, and they believed in what they were doing. They did what they needed to to pull ahead, and it was uncomfortable.
You don’t go to war with the army you want, nor the partners you want. You go with what you have and make due. Make of that metaphor what you need for elections and why minimizing harm is important. If you are not willing to soldier on for that; then you are not helping us win the class war. That makes you not very serious. The alt right has upped the ante several times now and you are still not sure about what you really want to do, or if you can spare an evening to vote and help others outside of your state and county.
Like I said. I get why you are unhappy about the lesser evil, but you are leaving many of your fellow socialists and lefties out to hang and be defeated in detail. The NYC elections are exiting, but we need more than just islands of progressivism.
I have pointed out numerous times how this strategy is just a repeat of the same electoral strategy that radical liberals have been engaging in for the better part of 20 years.
This is clearly not a winning strategy. You’re not being pragmatic you’re being insane because you continue to do the same thing expecting a different result while watching our government inch closer to fascism.
Pragmatically voting for minimizing harm means voting in the most working class candidate possible because that’s what we should all do regardless of party and vote for the most Progressive policies to uplift Working Class People. Anything past that is generally a waste of time.
If there’s a candidate a particular group is interested in sure they could spend some of their time doing electoral politics but they have additional responsibilities they have to do which are far more important and then spreading the propaganda of whatever candidate they’re trying to get voted in.
Like I said before education is incredibly important to help build the working class party and an educated working class would vote for the working class candidate regardless of party.
To your point you don’t get to pick who the generals are either. Nor do you get to pick who your comrades are or what the proper strategies are. Sometimes we have to conform to reality which I would argue that you are not.