Comrade_Spood

Yes we have a common enemy, and I never said we shouldn’t work together to fight it. But that cooperation to me is coming with a ten foot pole cause I know that as soon as it stops being advantageous I’ll be stepped on

I do not agree those demands would have been suicide, and I ain’t claiming Stepan is a perfect individual. I definitely think he made stupid decisions. But it is incorrect that he officially joined the white army. He tried to, but was denied because of his former Bolshevik affiliation. Plus he ended up coming back to the soviet union and joined the Red Army Intelligence Agency, which is something else I criticize him for along side trying to join the White Army. I do not hold any anarchist on a pedestal just because they are anarchist. Proudhon was a piece of shit, and Bakunin was an antisemite. They are flawed people and exactly why I am an anarchist. Because anarchism does not rely on people being perfect as it doesnt allow anyone to hold power over anyone else.

Lastly, soviets ruled by only bolsheviks is not a soviet, thats a one party system and yes does not properly represent the workers like the Kronstadt stated.

In any event I wish to move on. I will say this was a more pleasant debate than I usually have with marxists, so thank you for that. Ciao comrade, I will be expecting your boot when the day comes lol

Anarchists see the state as another system of class. A socialist state does not create a classless society, it changes the class dynamic from capitalists and workers to bureaucrats and workers. The workers themselves do not own the means of production and have to answer to the politicians and bureaucrats that manage the means of production.

And if that is your perspective then I do not see how anarchists and marxists could ever cooperate, as you said our goals are not aligned. Which is to say I do not see how you could be surprised by anarchists not trusting marxists. Doesnt sound like we have enough in common from your perspective to work together without one of us betraying the other.

Also no the Kronstadt Rebellion was an anarchist revolt, freedom of the press and speech for socialists including anarchists was one of the demands of the rebellion and so was bringing back the workers soviets that Lenin got rid of, among other things that, to me, are just asking for a more democratic and free system that doesnt centralize all the power to one party. The link I attached is the demands of the rebellion and it has nothing like you speak of.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1921-2/kronstadt-uprising/kronstadt-uprising-texts/demands-of-the-kronstadt-insurgents/

I aint saying anarchists dont have agency, but its because Marxists insist on it being their way or the highway and use positions of power to disenfranchize anarchists. Anarchists obviously do not like this and resist. That is not the anarchists fault. It wasnt the CNT-FAI’s fault for not wanting to disband their militias and integrate them into the Spanish Republican military structure, and it wasn’t the Kronstadt Rebellion’s fault for wanting the worker’s soviets and freedom of speech to be brough back after Lenin centralized control to the Bolshevik party. And it certainly wasn’t the Ukrainian Black Army’s fault when Trotsky decided they had no use for them anymore and turned the rifle on them. Anarchists and marxists have and still do work together, the issue is the relationship is not built on mutual respect and cooperation. Marxists seem to see anarchists as a tool, that when its use is no longer needed, is expected to go back to the drawer and sit quietly while the marxists take over.

I definitely could see a situation where marxists and anarchists could cooperate on a mutual and equal level. I just do not expect it to happen.

Personally I would want protections for anarchists to freely establish anarchist organized communes and other organizations like workplaces that are independent and autonomous from the marxist state. The two would still share resources and have open borders, but the two would be free to manage their own internal affairs. To me this meets anarchist principles of free association, and still allows for a marxist state to exist. Plus I feel it would meet the marxist’s principle of a transitionary state. The marxist state pops up, and the state would wither away to a stateless, classless, and moneyless society as people transition to the autonomous anarchist communes.

Do I think this would work? Possibly. Do I think an agreement like that would ever be made? No, not likely. The anarchists would still have the threat of being betrayed, and maybe even possibly the anarchists try to betray the marxist state. It would be an uneasy dynamic. And historically, marxists have shown they don’t want to make room for anarchists. But unless some sort of guarantee and protections were to be placed for anarchists in some way, I don’t see anarchists and marxists to ever get along.

Hey I don’t trust yall, but I still give yall the opportunity to prove me wrong (and so far I have been proven wrong by some individuals, so its not impossible). Same as I do with a liberal. I’m just prepared to get backstabbed.

Unfortunately the difference between anarchists and Marxists (pro-state or anti-state) seems to be a disagreement that ends in anarchists getting betrayed, disenfranchized, and shot. So I gotta stay diligent cause I’d rather learn from history rather than repeat it.

We aren’t saying there aren’t different kinds of liberals, what we are trying to tell you is that liberalism is not a left wing ideology anymore. It is centrist and anti-communist. Yes you have left leaning liberals and right leaning. But that still only makes yall center-left and center-right.

Leftists issues with liberals is because liberals, no matter what are pro-capitalist and anti-communist. Communists are anti-property and liberals are pro-property. Yes a leftist has more in common with a left leaning liberal than they do a right leaning liberal, but that does not make their interests aligned. Historically anytime liberals and communists team up, communists get backstabbed. And more often than not, it never even gets to teaming up. Historically, liberals are the ones to team up with authoritarians to crush communists.

And I’m an anarchist. I trust Marxist communists just about as much as I do liberals. That is to say not much. And I have more interests aligned with a Marxist than I do a liberal

Dude do you even know what liberal means?

Liberalism is an ideology founded in a few core principles. Capitalism and the right to own property, the power of the government originating from the masses rather than god, and inalienable rights for its citizens.

You guys are the ones redefining old words cause you don’t like the idea of not being considered leftist anymore. The overton window has shifted since the 1700s, yall are centrists now.

Its different I think when it is your peers that find you annoying. And especially when what they find annoying are traits often associated with neurodivergence. For example I definitely exhibited conflict seeking behavior, I interrupted people a lot, I talked too much, had trouble paying attention to people when they are talking to me, and had trouble staying on topic. I also had a lot of trouble telling when I was bothering people, and thus did not stop when I should’ve.

Do you have to have ADHD to be annoying? No. Are you inherently annoying if you have ADHD? Also no. But ADHD makes it a lot harder to not come off as annoying to people, and I definitely struggled to not be annoying because of my neurodivergence.

I was definitely seen as an annoying kid because of my undiagnosed adhd