Nah. I mean I’m German and what you’re saying is literally what we’ve been hearing from Neonazi circles for decades. It’s historically wrong and actually antisemitic.
The holocaust is the name for this specific event and there has not in human history been a larger industrially organized murder of a people.
It’s kind of insane that this neonazi propaganda is now being adopted from what I assume are leftists.
Yes, there has been. Neonazi propaganda is bad, but so is Zionist propaganda
The transatlantic slave trade put 12 million people on ships from Africa to the Americas. 2 million died and 10 million lived awful lives no better than that of the Jews in concentration camps.
Once you add their descendents (we don’t know the total number) we have 10s to 100s of millions of people living in work camps for 20 generations spanning 350 years.
Never has there been any compensation paid to descendants of slavery. Even today, there is still compensation paid to descendants of Holocaust victims, and the time difference between the end of slavery and the Holocaust is less than that between the Holocaust and today.
And it’s not just this one. Germany more or less ignores the genocide it committed in Namibia.
Even when it comes to WW2, the focus is always on the 6 million Jews and not the 20 million Slavs. Even though Slavs are a more homogeneous ethnic group than Jews. It was just inconvenient during the cold war to see the USSR and its citizens as a victim worthy of compensation.
And then finally, this live streamed genocide in Gaza. Which in some respects is worse than the Holocaust, even if the absolute number is lower.
My grandparents were resistance fighters in WW2. They knew Jews were being picked up and sent to camps, and they saved a few from that fate, but they didn’t know the truth about Auschwitz until after the war. The images were not publicly available in occupied Europe.
They were shocked. And the same is true for most Germans. The Nazi’s never had popular democratic support for the war and genocide.
But in Gaza, we can all see it. It is being denied, while being live streamed. The Israeli’s, Americans and the Germans can see the starving kids in Gaza and still provide popular democratic support to its continuation.
The Germans of WW2 never reached that level of moral depravity, only a few Nazi’s did.
The transatlantic slave trade, horrible as it was, took hundreds of years to make its victims, and was not a campaign of targeted extermination. There was little to no care for the slaves’ lives, but their murder wasn’t the goal.
The Holocaust only lasted from 41 to 45. 6 million jews were murdered in a span of only 4 years. In a period of just 100 days 1,47 million jews were systematically targeted and exterminated. That’s nearly double the rate of the Rwandan genocide. It’s the same amount of people who died on board of the slave ships spanning from the 16th to the 19th century. No genocide in history has a higher death rate than that. 90+% of Polish jews were murdered, a near total extinction.
That’s what people refer to when they talk about the largest industrial genocide. No other genocide in our history has come close. The numbers do not lie, and calling the memory of the Holocaust “zionist propaganda” is pretty sickening. It’s not just zionists that claim this you know, reputable historians around the world do.
Oh yes the Rwandan genocide really was incredibly brutal. If there had been a strong state apparatus I have little doubt that they could have matched the Holocaust rate. The intention was certainly there.
Dying wasn’t the goal, for the concentration camps, either, generally. It was creation of a slave labor race. Generally, the ones who were exterminated right out where the ones incapable of work (In the German’s eyes).
Kinda the same with slavery. Incapable of hard labor Black people were just put down.
And is murdering them via forced labor different if it only happens in select camps, versus in the cotton fields? Is time frame a difference, really? 6 years to die vs 20 years to die… Honestly, the former is likely more “humane”…
You don’t kill 1,47 million people in 100 days through working people to death. Those people were largely just exterminated, as Hitler also spoke of the “annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe”.
I think you may also be confusing the concentration camps with the extermination camps. Read up on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Reinhard, millions were deported to one of six extermination camps the Nazis built. Or Aktion T4. There’s plenty of sources that show the intent was to kill, any slave labor was just a nice benefit.
Slaves you keep alive on purpose, because they’re no use of you dead. The Nazis did no such thing, because they preferred their victims dead.
I said they were deemed unfit. Like women and children, the elderly, etc. Of course, some women were kept for sex slaves, too. Others were kept for medical experimentation, etc etc.
Did I say the slave trade was an industrial genocide?
You are cherry picking parameters to try and make the Holocaust some kind of unique tier of atrocity.
In the same time frame 20 million Slavs died.
On certain islands in the Caribbean, 100% of the native population was murdered and displaced, which is more than 90%.
Yes, there are certain aspects of the Holocaust that are unique, but it is not in a unique tier by itself. There are many metrics that make other atrocities worse.
I don’t know how else to say it, but: the unique aspects of the Holocaust are what makes the Holocaust unique.
Making up “tiers” of mass murder or genocide is dehumanizing. There is no point in trying to compare these atrocities - except of course if someone wants to say e.g. “Well, the holocaust wasn’t that bad”.
This whole discussion is in the context that, in Germany and the Western world, the Holocaust is positioned as the worst thing that ever happened. And the Nazi’s as uniquely evil.
Even if that is “the propaganda” (which I have not seen in this thread btw): your counterproposition is not to dispose of the whole one-dimensional “which atrocity is worse” bullshit, but instead formalizing it by speaking of tiers and arguing that the holocaust wasn’t that bad. That’s dehumanizing, has no value at all (it’s not like a “tier 2 genocide” it somehow more okay) and instead opens the doors for Nazi apologia and antisemtism and derails the discussion.
Did I say the slave trade was an industrial genocide?
Yes you did. The comment you replied to said:
The holocaust is the name for this specific event and there has not in human history been a larger industrially organized murder of a people.
You then replied with:
Yes, there has been. Neonazi propaganda is bad, but so is Zionist propaganda. The transatlantic slave trade put 12 million people on ships from Africa to the Americas.
Holocaust is not just another word for genocide. It describes the systematic, industrialized killing of an entire ethnicity. Like modern industrial-capitalist logistic chains, the nazis optimized the KZs and their Hinterland for the maximum efficiency in killing Jews.
There has not been something like this in the entire history of humanity. Please educate yourself. I say that without judging you. I’m aware that there have been many other genocides, each one more terrible than one could put in words. And yes, Israel is committing on in Gaza right now, but that doesn’t diminish the enormous suffering of the Jewish people in the last century.
If what the Israeli government and army are doing right now makes you go “Well maybe the Holocaust wasn’t sooo bad, all things considered” then you have some real soul searching to do. Stop consuming propaganda.
10 million lived awful lives no better than that of the Jews in concentration camps.
Source?
living in work camps for 20 generations spanning 350 years.
Source?
Never has there been any compensation paid to descendants of slavery
I’ll let you have this one
Even today, there is still compensation paid to descendants of Holocaust victims, and the time difference between the end of slavery and the Holocaust is less than that between the Holocaust and today.
So? The US is in the wrong for not compensating, Germany is actually trying at least.
not the 20 million Slavs.
We’re discussing the Holocaust perpetuated by the Nazi regime against Jewish people and other so-called ‘undesireable’ humans, not Stalin’s crimes against the people he was ostensibly responsible for. Stay on topic.
Even though Slavs are a more homogeneous ethnic group than Jews. It was just inconvenient during the cold war to see the USSR and its citizens as a victim worthy of compensation.
Why are you using ethnic homogeneity as an argument in your favor? Especially when trying to minimize the Jewish Holocaust in favor of painting the USSR as the victim‽
The Nazi’s never had popular democratic support for the war and genocide
The Germans of WW2 never reached that level of moral depravity, only a few Nazi’s did
Source? Pretty sure we had some pretty public trials over those claims already.
I don’t even disagree with you about Gaza, you’ve just got incredibly shit takes on history.
It blows my mind man. You are saying things that could come verbatim from a torch-carrying skinhead during a NPD rally in Dresden. Yet you call yourself a leftist according to your profile? How does that even happen?
The skinhead can be partially right about some things even if they’re monstrously wrong about the overall picture and what conclusions they draw. A neonazi would probably also say the earth is round, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
What, in particular, did that poster say that is so wrong? Are their numbers off? Did the other genocides not happen?
edit: To be clear: I’m talking about the poster you’re replying to here, not the deleted post above b/c who even knows what that said.
The poster I replied to literally said that Germans during the Holocaust were less morally depraved than today regarding Gaza. Let that sink in. Don’t just read over that phrase, really take a second to appreciate that they typed that out.
You ask what they’re wrong about… well pretty much everything, which he has in common with the hypothetical Dresden skinhead. Germans largely knew about the KZs and they didn’t care (or rather, pretended not to know and didn’t want to). This is actually a lie told all the time by German neonazis, that the Germans didn’t know what the regime they helped put in place was actually doing.
There is a movie that was released about this last year which you should definitely watch, called The Zone of Interest. It might make you feel sympathetic towards Jewish people though, I understand this is sort of a no-go with some people on this platform.
Also the whole construction is wrong (there have not been “many holocausts”) and again, this is something the extreme right will make you want to believe all the time - that it really wasn’t something that stands out in human history. I and many other posters have already pointed out why this is an enormous lie, extremely antisemitic and an extremely dangerous bending of history.
If his home instance is any indication, this absolutely tracks for the Midwest US. I grew up in the northern Midwest and drove past a Confederate flag frequently for the better part of 15 years. I got to thinking about it; I recognized it as a dog whistle for racism, but did the people who flew it so proudly recognize it as such?
And I realized they probably didn’t. They likely saw it as a ‘proud symbol of their good ole boy, “states rights fighters” Southern heritage.’ and frankly, that idea bothered me at a deeper level than if they were flying that flag as a dog-whistle.
The people of Germany have taken generational responsibility for the horrendous, genocidal 3rd Reich. They own it, they condemn it, and they do their best to combat misinformation about it.
Not so for the US. We tried, briefly, a little bit, to affect and promote Reconstruction. It failed pretty spectacularly thanks to Andrew Johnson’s vetoes. The ensuing decades saw white supremacists develop the Good Ole Boy myth, white-washing and denying the true reason they wanted to fracture the Union.
Jump to today; Germans arguing against anti-Semitism while the US is deporting brown people to concentration camps.
My passport arrived today, praise Satan. Trying to properly secure a work visa in the EU but will also have my bugout bag with documentation close at hand.
Speaking of; got any job opportunities for a 2 YOE mechanical engineer? Or advice on applying to Masters programs in Germany? I believe I can travel to and stay in the Schengen Zone for 90 days visa-free with the US passport, but I’m not sure if I’m able to convert that to a work permit.
Any EU friends able to help a worried AuDHD dude? I know zero people who have traveled internationally and I’m lost.
You could register on couch surfing, it might be a good place to meet people once you start exploring options in Europe. You can also ask questions and advice, there is also events organised by people so it works a bit like a forum/ social media platform. You don’t have (the intent) to host or stay with someone to use it as as a source of local info:
https://www.couchsurfing.com/
Germany is supporting Israel and it’s ongoing genocide. You’re not in much of a position to shake your finger.
Germany is not doing much better in the anti-Semitism department considering that Palestinians are semites and Germany has made it illegal to criticize Israel.
You are blessed with a country with a functioning education system. It seems some countries only educate to the level of “Welcome to McDonald’s. Can I take your order?”
All the fuck.
Nah. I mean I’m German and what you’re saying is literally what we’ve been hearing from Neonazi circles for decades. It’s historically wrong and actually antisemitic.
The holocaust is the name for this specific event and there has not in human history been a larger industrially organized murder of a people.
It’s kind of insane that this neonazi propaganda is now being adopted from what I assume are leftists.
Yes, there has been. Neonazi propaganda is bad, but so is Zionist propaganda
The transatlantic slave trade put 12 million people on ships from Africa to the Americas. 2 million died and 10 million lived awful lives no better than that of the Jews in concentration camps.
Once you add their descendents (we don’t know the total number) we have 10s to 100s of millions of people living in work camps for 20 generations spanning 350 years.
Never has there been any compensation paid to descendants of slavery. Even today, there is still compensation paid to descendants of Holocaust victims, and the time difference between the end of slavery and the Holocaust is less than that between the Holocaust and today.
And it’s not just this one. Germany more or less ignores the genocide it committed in Namibia.
Even when it comes to WW2, the focus is always on the 6 million Jews and not the 20 million Slavs. Even though Slavs are a more homogeneous ethnic group than Jews. It was just inconvenient during the cold war to see the USSR and its citizens as a victim worthy of compensation.
And then finally, this live streamed genocide in Gaza. Which in some respects is worse than the Holocaust, even if the absolute number is lower.
My grandparents were resistance fighters in WW2. They knew Jews were being picked up and sent to camps, and they saved a few from that fate, but they didn’t know the truth about Auschwitz until after the war. The images were not publicly available in occupied Europe. They were shocked. And the same is true for most Germans. The Nazi’s never had popular democratic support for the war and genocide.
But in Gaza, we can all see it. It is being denied, while being live streamed. The Israeli’s, Americans and the Germans can see the starving kids in Gaza and still provide popular democratic support to its continuation.
The Germans of WW2 never reached that level of moral depravity, only a few Nazi’s did.
The transatlantic slave trade, horrible as it was, took hundreds of years to make its victims, and was not a campaign of targeted extermination. There was little to no care for the slaves’ lives, but their murder wasn’t the goal.
The Holocaust only lasted from 41 to 45. 6 million jews were murdered in a span of only 4 years. In a period of just 100 days 1,47 million jews were systematically targeted and exterminated. That’s nearly double the rate of the Rwandan genocide. It’s the same amount of people who died on board of the slave ships spanning from the 16th to the 19th century. No genocide in history has a higher death rate than that. 90+% of Polish jews were murdered, a near total extinction.
That’s what people refer to when they talk about the largest industrial genocide. No other genocide in our history has come close. The numbers do not lie, and calling the memory of the Holocaust “zionist propaganda” is pretty sickening. It’s not just zionists that claim this you know, reputable historians around the world do.
If you put it like that Rwanda’s manual genocide sounds evilly impressive.
Oh yes the Rwandan genocide really was incredibly brutal. If there had been a strong state apparatus I have little doubt that they could have matched the Holocaust rate. The intention was certainly there.
Dying wasn’t the goal, for the concentration camps, either, generally. It was creation of a slave labor race. Generally, the ones who were exterminated right out where the ones incapable of work (In the German’s eyes).
Kinda the same with slavery. Incapable of hard labor Black people were just put down.
And is murdering them via forced labor different if it only happens in select camps, versus in the cotton fields? Is time frame a difference, really? 6 years to die vs 20 years to die… Honestly, the former is likely more “humane”…
You don’t kill 1,47 million people in 100 days through working people to death. Those people were largely just exterminated, as Hitler also spoke of the “annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe”.
I think you may also be confusing the concentration camps with the extermination camps. Read up on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Reinhard, millions were deported to one of six extermination camps the Nazis built. Or Aktion T4. There’s plenty of sources that show the intent was to kill, any slave labor was just a nice benefit.
Slaves you keep alive on purpose, because they’re no use of you dead. The Nazis did no such thing, because they preferred their victims dead.
Yes, those 1.47 million were those deemed unfit for labor.
Nothing you said disagrees with what I said.
Plenty of those people could have worked. Slave labor was not the primary purpose of the camps.
I said they were deemed unfit. Like women and children, the elderly, etc. Of course, some women were kept for sex slaves, too. Others were kept for medical experimentation, etc etc.
Did I say the slave trade was an industrial genocide?
You are cherry picking parameters to try and make the Holocaust some kind of unique tier of atrocity.
In the same time frame 20 million Slavs died.
On certain islands in the Caribbean, 100% of the native population was murdered and displaced, which is more than 90%.
Yes, there are certain aspects of the Holocaust that are unique, but it is not in a unique tier by itself. There are many metrics that make other atrocities worse.
I don’t know how else to say it, but: the unique aspects of the Holocaust are what makes the Holocaust unique.
Making up “tiers” of mass murder or genocide is dehumanizing. There is no point in trying to compare these atrocities - except of course if someone wants to say e.g. “Well, the holocaust wasn’t that bad”.
This whole discussion is in the context that, in Germany and the Western world, the Holocaust is positioned as the worst thing that ever happened. And the Nazi’s as uniquely evil.
That’s the propaganda we are arguing against.
Even if that is “the propaganda” (which I have not seen in this thread btw): your counterproposition is not to dispose of the whole one-dimensional “which atrocity is worse” bullshit, but instead formalizing it by speaking of tiers and arguing that the holocaust wasn’t that bad. That’s dehumanizing, has no value at all (it’s not like a “tier 2 genocide” it somehow more okay) and instead opens the doors for Nazi apologia and antisemtism and derails the discussion.
I didn’t say that Holocaust wasn’t that bad, that’s you being racist.
Yes you did. The comment you replied to said:
You then replied with:
I have chatbots with better reading comprehension than this.
Don’t cherry pick and misquote dude.
Please explain what “Yes there has been” was referring to then.
Go up three comments to read the full context. Like a normal human.
Holocaust is not just another word for genocide. It describes the systematic, industrialized killing of an entire ethnicity. Like modern industrial-capitalist logistic chains, the nazis optimized the KZs and their Hinterland for the maximum efficiency in killing Jews.
There has not been something like this in the entire history of humanity. Please educate yourself. I say that without judging you. I’m aware that there have been many other genocides, each one more terrible than one could put in words. And yes, Israel is committing on in Gaza right now, but that doesn’t diminish the enormous suffering of the Jewish people in the last century.
If what the Israeli government and army are doing right now makes you go “Well maybe the Holocaust wasn’t sooo bad, all things considered” then you have some real soul searching to do. Stop consuming propaganda.
Dude, I never said the Holocaust ain’t bad.
You’re just a racist projecting your beliefs on others
You have some serious problems with reading comprehension.
You need to provide sources. For example: most Germans knew about concentration camps and the mass murder (source).
Source?
Source?
I’ll let you have this one
So? The US is in the wrong for not compensating, Germany is actually trying at least.
We’re discussing the Holocaust perpetuated by the Nazi regime against Jewish people and other so-called ‘undesireable’ humans, not Stalin’s crimes against the people he was ostensibly responsible for. Stay on topic.
Why are you using ethnic homogeneity as an argument in your favor? Especially when trying to minimize the Jewish Holocaust in favor of painting the USSR as the victim‽
Source? Pretty sure we had some pretty public trials over those claims already.
I don’t even disagree with you about Gaza, you’ve just got incredibly shit takes on history.
It blows my mind man. You are saying things that could come verbatim from a torch-carrying skinhead during a NPD rally in Dresden. Yet you call yourself a leftist according to your profile? How does that even happen?
The skinhead can be partially right about some things even if they’re monstrously wrong about the overall picture and what conclusions they draw. A neonazi would probably also say the earth is round, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
What, in particular, did that poster say that is so wrong? Are their numbers off? Did the other genocides not happen?
edit: To be clear: I’m talking about the poster you’re replying to here, not the deleted post above b/c who even knows what that said.
The poster I replied to literally said that Germans during the Holocaust were less morally depraved than today regarding Gaza. Let that sink in. Don’t just read over that phrase, really take a second to appreciate that they typed that out.
You ask what they’re wrong about… well pretty much everything, which he has in common with the hypothetical Dresden skinhead. Germans largely knew about the KZs and they didn’t care (or rather, pretended not to know and didn’t want to). This is actually a lie told all the time by German neonazis, that the Germans didn’t know what the regime they helped put in place was actually doing.
There is a movie that was released about this last year which you should definitely watch, called The Zone of Interest. It might make you feel sympathetic towards Jewish people though, I understand this is sort of a no-go with some people on this platform.
Also the whole construction is wrong (there have not been “many holocausts”) and again, this is something the extreme right will make you want to believe all the time - that it really wasn’t something that stands out in human history. I and many other posters have already pointed out why this is an enormous lie, extremely antisemitic and an extremely dangerous bending of history.
deleted by creator
Belgian congo
If his home instance is any indication, this absolutely tracks for the Midwest US. I grew up in the northern Midwest and drove past a Confederate flag frequently for the better part of 15 years. I got to thinking about it; I recognized it as a dog whistle for racism, but did the people who flew it so proudly recognize it as such?
And I realized they probably didn’t. They likely saw it as a ‘proud symbol of their good ole boy, “states rights fighters” Southern heritage.’ and frankly, that idea bothered me at a deeper level than if they were flying that flag as a dog-whistle.
The people of Germany have taken generational responsibility for the horrendous, genocidal 3rd Reich. They own it, they condemn it, and they do their best to combat misinformation about it.
Not so for the US. We tried, briefly, a little bit, to affect and promote Reconstruction. It failed pretty spectacularly thanks to Andrew Johnson’s vetoes. The ensuing decades saw white supremacists develop the Good Ole Boy myth, white-washing and denying the true reason they wanted to fracture the Union.
Jump to today; Germans arguing against anti-Semitism while the US is deporting brown people to concentration camps.
My passport arrived today, praise Satan. Trying to properly secure a work visa in the EU but will also have my bugout bag with documentation close at hand.
Speaking of; got any job opportunities for a 2 YOE mechanical engineer? Or advice on applying to Masters programs in Germany? I believe I can travel to and stay in the Schengen Zone for 90 days visa-free with the US passport, but I’m not sure if I’m able to convert that to a work permit.
Any EU friends able to help a worried AuDHD dude? I know zero people who have traveled internationally and I’m lost.
You could register on couch surfing, it might be a good place to meet people once you start exploring options in Europe. You can also ask questions and advice, there is also events organised by people so it works a bit like a forum/ social media platform. You don’t have (the intent) to host or stay with someone to use it as as a source of local info: https://www.couchsurfing.com/
Also maybe this is valuable (maybe less if you’re only interested in moving around in the Schengen area): https://www.passportindex.org/passport/united-states-of-america/
Have a look: https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/types/job-search-opportunity-card
Hey, this is excellent, thank you! Definitely going to chase this down.
Germany is supporting Israel and it’s ongoing genocide. You’re not in much of a position to shake your finger.
Germany is not doing much better in the anti-Semitism department considering that Palestinians are semites and Germany has made it illegal to criticize Israel.
I’m not German dude, I’m an American.
The support behind Israel in their genocide of the Palestinians is despicable.
Any support of any genocide anywhere is despicable.
Can we please stop excusing crimes against humanity when they happen to people we don’t like?
You are blessed with a country with a functioning education system. It seems some countries only educate to the level of “Welcome to McDonald’s. Can I take your order?”