Even now if an american football team makes a touchdown and wins while you were eating and drinking some snacks - it was the snacks magical ability and not the athlete’s skills - right?
Again my argument was never about believing in religion. But religion is being 5he foundation of morals and society. I never debated against current beliefs or believing or questioning anybody’s moral compass if they are not religious. You are reading something I did not write.
I’m sorry if you thought I meant it was about believing in religion, that’s not what I meant. I’m asking if you believe morals and society could exist without religion or if religion came before morals and society.
I can understand your logic up until the point you said the reason for organized religion was lightning strike/fire. I’m not understanding why that is evidence for religion as opposed to evidence for how people have misunderstood things in the past?
You keep forgetting that morals doesn’t mean right.
Let me bring up some morally right things - that were 100% acceptable by the ruling class - so religion included:
Owning humans.
Raping your wife - because that’s not rape.
Chemically castrate gay men.
Killing accused women without any evidence of witchcraft.
Segregation based on skin, belifs or origin.
Killing and pillaging.
Having a ruler chosen by god.
Ethnic cleansing.
Killing the old / mentally ill / poor.
Taking money for made up reasons.
No those are morals. Religion helped to use those rules against “others”. ‘You should not rape your friends wife, but you can do anything with yours.’ look at the Bible and those marriage rules.
‘You should not do business outside the tribe’ - several current religions still have this rule, a bit more softened.
And so on.
Those are morals set by ruling class = religion or god kings (example: pharaohs). They are the foundation of society.And that’s what I keep saying. Morals and society has the foundation in religion.
Evidence is human history. All early civilizations had god kings. They were religious leaders. First part is that they were god given second part they were ruling class. And ruling class always sets the morals/laws of the people it rules.
It would probably be difficult to find evidence of which predates which but if you say religion is the foundation for society and morals then every society must have a religion right? As far as researchers understand, the Pirahã tribe in the Amazon have no religion. If there is a present day society with no religion then there likely were in the past as well. That makes it difficult for me to believe religion is the foundation of society if there are societies with no religion.
Even now if an american football team makes a touchdown and wins while you were eating and drinking some snacks - it was the snacks magical ability and not the athlete’s skills - right?
Again my argument was never about believing in religion. But religion is being 5he foundation of morals and society. I never debated against current beliefs or believing or questioning anybody’s moral compass if they are not religious. You are reading something I did not write.
I’m sorry if you thought I meant it was about believing in religion, that’s not what I meant. I’m asking if you believe morals and society could exist without religion or if religion came before morals and society.
I can understand your logic up until the point you said the reason for organized religion was lightning strike/fire. I’m not understanding why that is evidence for religion as opposed to evidence for how people have misunderstood things in the past?
You keep forgetting that morals doesn’t mean right.
Let me bring up some morally right things - that were 100% acceptable by the ruling class - so religion included:
Owning humans.
Raping your wife - because that’s not rape.
Chemically castrate gay men.
Killing accused women without any evidence of witchcraft.
Segregation based on skin, belifs or origin.
Killing and pillaging.
Having a ruler chosen by god.
Ethnic cleansing.
Killing the old / mentally ill / poor.
Taking money for made up reasons.
That is morality.
Well now I’m a little more confused. Are you saying those things are all morals taught by religion?
No those are morals. Religion helped to use those rules against “others”. ‘You should not rape your friends wife, but you can do anything with yours.’ look at the Bible and those marriage rules.
‘You should not do business outside the tribe’ - several current religions still have this rule, a bit more softened.
And so on.
Those are morals set by ruling class = religion or god kings (example: pharaohs). They are the foundation of society.And that’s what I keep saying. Morals and society has the foundation in religion.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree about this. I simply don’t believe that religion came before society and morals unless I see some evidence.
Evidence is human history. All early civilizations had god kings. They were religious leaders. First part is that they were god given second part they were ruling class. And ruling class always sets the morals/laws of the people it rules.
It would probably be difficult to find evidence of which predates which but if you say religion is the foundation for society and morals then every society must have a religion right? As far as researchers understand, the Pirahã tribe in the Amazon have no religion. If there is a present day society with no religion then there likely were in the past as well. That makes it difficult for me to believe religion is the foundation of society if there are societies with no religion.
If there is a dozen societies that dont have religion and thousands that has … Which ponnt stands?