Some people on here legitimately believe that if the world transitions to anarchy, crime won’t exist anymore. They actually believe that all crime is caused by power structures existing.
Uh-huh. So, in your fantasy world where cops don’t exist, who intervenes when someone inevitably commits a crime?
I’m sure you’ve got some version of Social Workers with Enforcement PowersTM in mind, but all that really amounts to is Reformed CopsTM. So, just admit ACAB is your anger-fueled generalization/oversimplified solution to a complex problem and say you want police reform, like the rest of us sane people.
Look at nearly any developed country outside the USA. Cops are not even given firearms in many cases, and the cop murder rate is near zero, even when the suspects are armed. There are way better ways to deal with it.
If you have a problem and you call the police, you now have two problems. ACAB. police in the usa are tyrants who just punish, don’t give a shit about you.
in your fantasy world where cops don’t exist, who intervenes when someone inevitably commits a crime?
Who intervenes when cops are around, though? I’ve been laughed at in my face and told they couldn’t do anything despite us having proof in the form of a brick through our window. Not even the restraining order was honored.
Or how about the time I got beat up and all they did was allegedly take some notes and tell me they couldn’t do anything because it was private property despite my fresh bruises?
Or them cat-calling a 15 year-old that they’re supposed to be protecting?
Kind of useless if you ask me, and I haven’t even gotten to the malicious stuff like locking up my brother in law for a year and pressuring for ransom and sacking his family’s home.
It’s kind of insane how much we believe in their image rather than rely on their actions to even dare be so condescending.
All of those instances are examples of either cops not doing their jobs or the law being imperfect. Problems like that will always exist but that just means we need to focus on fixing them, by changing laws and instituting better systems for policing the police. Getting rid of police as an institution is pointless and fixes nothing.
I agree we need reforms in both law and police departments, as well as a better institution than “Internal Affairs” to keep cops in line. More essentially, we need to change the cultural problem at the heart of police corruption. Regular psychological evaluations, deescalation training, and an active stance against authoritarian personalities in police need to be adopted.
Cops are a few hundert years old concept why would they be necessary now when most places they barely existed pre ww1.
Your second paragraph is just as pie in the sky as abolishing, specifically because as with every position entailing power over others, authoritarians will flock to it.
The police was created so that wealth and power can effectively use part of the state for physical protection of their assets and lives, and that is still their operating background, the management of the local meat packing factory or the amazon warehouse will have much greater access to police resources than you or your plumber, by design, the law is imperfect and cops are not doing their job, more or less on purpose. And this status quo will not change unless at least some part of this system is entirely redone.
If the greater context in which the police exists, makes normal people scared of consequences, and powerful people immune to consequences enacted by police, why should any normal person argue for their existence.
Cops are a few hundert years old concept why would they be necessary now when most places they barely existed pre ww1.
LOL, wtf are you smoking, dude? This is why conversations about this topic on Lemmy are so consistently bad; ACAB folks just make shit up. Societies have had police in some form or another since practically the beginning of civilization. And to the extent that they didn’t, crime was up and vigilante justice was the only recourse.
You’re a damn fool, and I don’t take you seriously.
Either the robbery is severe enough for the person who was robbed to assemble a little group to catch the robber or they just let it slide. If we know some info about the robber we could let any institutions in the surrounding area know that this person is to be exiled or at least that his missteps be brought up before he is again considered to be part of polite society.
Local neighbourhood watch /militias could also exist and take over some of the polices current work especially when it comes to groups of potentially violent perpetrators.
None of this is going to be particularly effective but it’s not like currently a robbery, or most other crimes are likely to be effectively prosecuted either so I don’t see the big issue.
There are more watertight arguments made by anarchists, syndicalists and the like that you could read and agree or disagree with. But at the end of the day there is little ability for either of us to demonstrate, to me that the police can be fixed with any proposed method, and to you that society without police would work/ be more fair. So ultimately we are not gonna get much further here.
I’ll be honest, what you are describing sounds like a return to vigilante justice, which does not sound enticing to me. It sounds like the prelude to Gang/Militia warfare. Organised Crime would thrive in such an environment.
But at the end of the day there is little ability for either of us to demonstrate, to me that the police can be fixed with any proposed method
I’m not intelligent enough to propose solutions for fixing a police force which is highly corrupt. But I feel confident enough to say there are absolutely examples of countries with a functioning/not corrupt police force.
Germany is a very good example of what a good police force can look like. Sure there is always some that have a power trip and abuse their power, but that’s something you’ll have in any system, a system of vigilante neighborhood/militias included (if not more so). Police in Germany are generally well trained and a boon to society.
None of this is going to be particularly effective but it’s not like currently a robbery, or most other crimes are likely to be effectively prosecuted either so I don’t see the big issue.
Not sure what country you are referring to, but I’ll stick with Germany as an example of a functioning police force. In Germany 58% of crimes are solved
And the missing 42% aren’t because of police corruption, but due to missing evidence etc.
So I don’t believe Police as a concept is outdated, since we need a way to enforce the laws that we as citizens agree on, but rather that the countries that have corruption problems need radical reform.
I give a shit about nurses and doctors and firefighters. We need them. I want them to be taken care of and compensated well.
All cops are bastards, though. The world would be better off without them and I work toward abolition.
Edit: dont commit violence OP
This is a fantastically naive thought. I hope you learn why, some day, but not in a way that causes you harm.
We need police too dumb ass.
We need some form of law enforcement.
We do not need a standing military with a license to kill any random citizen.
Some people on here legitimately believe that if the world transitions to anarchy, crime won’t exist anymore. They actually believe that all crime is caused by power structures existing.
Uh-huh. So, in your fantasy world where cops don’t exist, who intervenes when someone inevitably commits a crime?
I’m sure you’ve got some version of Social Workers with Enforcement PowersTM in mind, but all that really amounts to is Reformed CopsTM. So, just admit ACAB is your anger-fueled generalization/oversimplified solution to a complex problem and say you want police reform, like the rest of us sane people.
Look at nearly any developed country outside the USA. Cops are not even given firearms in many cases, and the cop murder rate is near zero, even when the suspects are armed. There are way better ways to deal with it.
If you have a problem and you call the police, you now have two problems. ACAB. police in the usa are tyrants who just punish, don’t give a shit about you.
You’re pointing to countries that still have police as evidence that we don’t need police?
Man, ACAB arguments have flatlined.
Keep licking the boot. You don’t even understand what ACAB means.
Who intervenes when cops are around, though? I’ve been laughed at in my face and told they couldn’t do anything despite us having proof in the form of a brick through our window. Not even the restraining order was honored.
Or how about the time I got beat up and all they did was allegedly take some notes and tell me they couldn’t do anything because it was private property despite my fresh bruises?
Or them cat-calling a 15 year-old that they’re supposed to be protecting?
Kind of useless if you ask me, and I haven’t even gotten to the malicious stuff like locking up my brother in law for a year and pressuring for ransom and sacking his family’s home.
It’s kind of insane how much we believe in their image rather than rely on their actions to even dare be so condescending.
All of those instances are examples of either cops not doing their jobs or the law being imperfect. Problems like that will always exist but that just means we need to focus on fixing them, by changing laws and instituting better systems for policing the police. Getting rid of police as an institution is pointless and fixes nothing.
I agree we need reforms in both law and police departments, as well as a better institution than “Internal Affairs” to keep cops in line. More essentially, we need to change the cultural problem at the heart of police corruption. Regular psychological evaluations, deescalation training, and an active stance against authoritarian personalities in police need to be adopted.
Cops are a few hundert years old concept why would they be necessary now when most places they barely existed pre ww1.
Your second paragraph is just as pie in the sky as abolishing, specifically because as with every position entailing power over others, authoritarians will flock to it.
The police was created so that wealth and power can effectively use part of the state for physical protection of their assets and lives, and that is still their operating background, the management of the local meat packing factory or the amazon warehouse will have much greater access to police resources than you or your plumber, by design, the law is imperfect and cops are not doing their job, more or less on purpose. And this status quo will not change unless at least some part of this system is entirely redone.
If the greater context in which the police exists, makes normal people scared of consequences, and powerful people immune to consequences enacted by police, why should any normal person argue for their existence.
LOL, wtf are you smoking, dude? This is why conversations about this topic on Lemmy are so consistently bad; ACAB folks just make shit up. Societies have had police in some form or another since practically the beginning of civilization. And to the extent that they didn’t, crime was up and vigilante justice was the only recourse.
You’re a damn fool, and I don’t take you seriously.
So say we abolish the police. What happens when someone has been robbed?
Either the robbery is severe enough for the person who was robbed to assemble a little group to catch the robber or they just let it slide. If we know some info about the robber we could let any institutions in the surrounding area know that this person is to be exiled or at least that his missteps be brought up before he is again considered to be part of polite society.
Local neighbourhood watch /militias could also exist and take over some of the polices current work especially when it comes to groups of potentially violent perpetrators.
None of this is going to be particularly effective but it’s not like currently a robbery, or most other crimes are likely to be effectively prosecuted either so I don’t see the big issue.
There are more watertight arguments made by anarchists, syndicalists and the like that you could read and agree or disagree with. But at the end of the day there is little ability for either of us to demonstrate, to me that the police can be fixed with any proposed method, and to you that society without police would work/ be more fair. So ultimately we are not gonna get much further here.
I’ll be honest, what you are describing sounds like a return to vigilante justice, which does not sound enticing to me. It sounds like the prelude to Gang/Militia warfare. Organised Crime would thrive in such an environment.
I’m not intelligent enough to propose solutions for fixing a police force which is highly corrupt. But I feel confident enough to say there are absolutely examples of countries with a functioning/not corrupt police force.
Germany is a very good example of what a good police force can look like. Sure there is always some that have a power trip and abuse their power, but that’s something you’ll have in any system, a system of vigilante neighborhood/militias included (if not more so). Police in Germany are generally well trained and a boon to society.
Not sure what country you are referring to, but I’ll stick with Germany as an example of a functioning police force. In Germany 58% of crimes are solved
And the missing 42% aren’t because of police corruption, but due to missing evidence etc.
So I don’t believe Police as a concept is outdated, since we need a way to enforce the laws that we as citizens agree on, but rather that the countries that have corruption problems need radical reform.
All you have to do is look at how Reddit responded to the guy they thought was the Boston Marathon bomber to know that your idea isn’t going to work.
Crowd sourcing law enforcement is a horrible idea.
Vigilantism isn’t the answer … to anything. It’s a romantic idea best consumed in pulp form.