Just today, news, this time directly from a Ukrainian source (so please use a google translate or something): https://focus.ua/uk/voennye-novosti/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-viyskova-policiya-zmozhe-zahoditi-v-zhitlo-ta-vinagorodzhuvati-za-dopomogu

Now, we are not just going to be kidnapped on the streets, they are going to break into our homes, and kidnap us in front of our families and forcibly send to die.

But you still support it, after all it’s not some people worth worrying about, it’s just Ukrainians, we can be slaughtered till the last person in the name of geopolitics, right?

ancap think tank

So basically you have no arguments against what is said there, so you just attack the source instead of disproving anything that is written there? Very cool :)

online “museum”

But what sources would you expect? The mainstream media is not going to report every case, because it shows completely opposite view to the current propaganda that says that Ukraine is a democratic country where people want to fight and die for their glorious master leader Zelensky…
Here is a link for you to msn, is it a more reliable source which you would trust?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
Some quotes from there:

When you see people in uniform, you panic. You start thinking someone will mobilize you now against your will
You worry that someone will throw you into the bus one day, take you somewhere, turn off your phone, and you will be cut off from the world"
It shows a physical fight between recruitment officers and civilians

Another article:
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html

Another article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065

Telegram threads give tip-offs on where drafting officers are patrolling. There are chats for different regions and cities across the country, sometimes with more than 100,000 members each. there are reports of some being taken away on the spot, without a chance to return home.
But there are claims of officers using harsh or intimidating tactics. There are also reports of conscripts finding themselves on the front line with just a month of training.

Another article, also with a video of “man being dragged into van by conscription officers in Odesa”:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription

How many more sources you need to believe that Ukrainian government is kidnapping people on the streets, forcefully puts them into vans and then sends them to die? People who don’t want to fight for Zelensky, people who just one to live. They want to keep the one thing that is most precious to each human - their life. And our government, with support from your government, and people like you, is murdering thousands of us. Do you really support this? Would you still support it if it wasn’t random people you don’t know, but if it was your family, your father, your son if have one, your friends that were kidnapped and sent to die?

surely you are able to provide reputable sources

Sure :)

what makes the Ukrainian government illegitimate

This articles describes exactly my thoughts on this opinion: https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/the-end-of-zelenskys-legitimacy/

when it has kidnapped its own civilians and forced them to fight

Every day!
It doesn’t get shown in the western media, but if you subscribe to the local channels of big cities (Kiev/Odessa/Lviv/Kharkiv/etc.), or basically any sources actually covering what’s happening in Ukraine (in Ukrainian or Russian language), you will see videos of TCK (I dunno how to properly translate it, but that’s the government-military organization that does the kidnapping) posted almost every single day, people are caught on the streets and forcibly put into vans. Sometimes people manage to escape them, sometimes the crowd helps fight TCK off, but more often then not they get successfully kidnapped. Some villages got almost every men kidnapped that way (because previously they were scared to operate in big cities and preferred villages, but now they don’t give a shit about anything).
A very small portion of that is documented here: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/

But what is disinformation in my comment?
What is it with lots of people here on lemmy that label everything that doesn’t suit their worldview as misinformation/disinformation/propaganda?
That and name-calling does not change facts, you know, it just shows to other people that you can’t argue your position…

What bridge?

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I bet you blame the Palestinians for the bombing of Raffa.

Well, you’ve just lost your bet. I condemn both the genocide of Palestinians (done by the USA through Israel), and the genocide of Ukrainians (done again mostly by the USA through Ukrainian government. Damn, those guys really do like massacring people all around the globe :/, almost like they are the bad guys, hm…).

You would blame World War II on the Polish.

Nope, I don’t, good thing you didn’t make a bet on it, otherwise you’d lose two bets in a row.
But I do blame Poland for participating in massacring Ukrainians though. In fact, Poland is among the worst offenders! It helps “heroes” of Ukrainian border guard to catch those who try to escape Zelensky’s meatgrinder, who then get sent straight to the meatgrinder… For that reason, people mostly escape to Romania. Thankfully, Romania is not as sadistic as the rest of the democratic & free world.

Allowing Ukraine to defend itself is just the right thing to do.

Sure, supporting authoritarian government that forces desperate people trapped in Ukraine to die for their interest and political games is the right thing to do.

It is easy to support a genocide when it is not you and not your family that are getting massacred by Zelensky.

Hopefully Hungary will stay strong and continue to support Ukrainians, even if it is alone in doing so <3

I’m hearing this argument over and over again, yet for some reason no one can explain whether giving up land to an invader is always unacceptable, or are there some exceptions? Maybe it’s how long ago the land was taken?
I suspect it’s the latter, and this time period is greater than 10 years (because Crimea is still “rightfully Ukrainian”, right?), but less than a few hundred years (because all the other invaded territories now “rightfully belong to the invader”.
You do understand that almost every piece of land on this planet, that belongs to country A, was conquered from another country B (or from a tribe B if we go long enough into the history, or from family B if go even further, or from some other entity if we go even further)?
Should Poland invade Ukraine to retake Lviv?
Should Finland invade Russia to retake Karelia?
Should Mexico invade USA to retake California?
Should every country in Europe invade every other country in Europe because they all hold some territories that belonged to a different country some time back?

Wow, my comment got removed because it is “misinformation / propaganda”.
You surely guys are open to a civil discussion based on facts :)

Removed by mod

What?

crimes against Ukrainians

Surely this also applies to current USA administration turning Ukraine into prison that is almost impossible to escape and where men are treated worse then dogs?

Ah, so justification is - they do something bad, so we will do something bad as well (not towards them tho).
Got it

WDYM?

You cannot tell the difference between Russia and the Free World? What is wrong with you man?

Is it Russia that kidnaps Ukrainians on the streets and sends them to die? The last time I checked it was Zelensky’s regime.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-intelligence-believes-putin-probably-didn-t-order-his-rival-navalny-s-killing-report-claims/ar-AA1nLp5U

There’s nothing I can say to arguing that “killing Ukrainians is okay because they are killed ‘for the greater good of stopping a miniHitler’” as well. I don’t find it morally correct to kill people that done nothing wrong.

And also,

“31,000 killed, 7,000–8,000 missing”

Is lower than even Ukrainian propaganda is saying, it’s twice that number for the first year of war (US estimate), so about 4 times that number as of now, by US estimate.

Doesn’t mind joining EU?

Why are you asking me? It’s a publicly available info, not my opinion.

Oh, because I assume 2014 was a coup and not people being mad at the president refusing to sign a trade agreement with the EU and choosing closer ties to russia despite promises right?

From wikipedia:
A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover.

Seems to suit that definition.

Like those negotiations where russia promised not to attack Ukraine if they gave up their nukes, yeah.

Yeah, they did that. Now, would you please be so kind to tell me about a country that never broke any internation laws, agreements, etc.? Pro tip: you can’t.
Does it mean that nobody should negotiate with each anymore because we all did bad things in the past, and we should instead just kill each other?

And I find it hilarious that you’re rooting for the perpetrators of the Bucha massacre. I guess none of your friends were there so that was fine. Well, if that’s what your logic dictates, very well. Good luck with that.

Yes, thankfully none of my friends were there.
But this is again an unfair comparison!
According to the wikipedia - a few hundred people were murdered there. Let’s add to that a few thousand more civilians that were killed by Russian forces. Let’s say it is a ten thousand, give or take. This is a horrible number. Yet the number of people killed/wounded by Zelensky’s regime is an order of fucking magnitude greater than that! Estimated to be in hundreds of thousands!
If you were given an option where you could die with 1% chance or with 10% chance, which option would you choose? I think for most people the answer is clearly the former. My logic indeed dictates that, and I would choose it every time. Does your logic say otherwise?
So you’re damn right I’m rooting for the “perpetrators of the Bucha massacre” instead of “perpetrators of mass genocide of Ukrainians”. If there was a good side to root for, I would. But there isn’t. So I support the side that I consider the lesser evil, the side which gives Ukrainians a hope of survival.

But yeah, either you’re a very naïve ukranian or more likely what I’ve been saying from the start.

Could you please explain to me, how does “rooting for” the side that increases the chance of survival for my family and all the other Ukrainians mean that I am naïve?
Or if you think what you’ve “been saying from the start” (basically that Mr. Putin pays me to write comments on lemmy), why do you think so? Why isn’t it logical for a Ukrainian to hope that Russia will win? I argumented my position, that it’s as simple as increasing the chance of survival for oneself and their family. Isn’t that the most precious thing one has?