OK, I suppose that’s my fault for trying to establish a human rapport by acknowledging that we both find German governmental policy towards Israel frustrating. I guess it was a little condescending, but I didn’t mean it to be. But fuck me I guess. I retract the attempt to empathize with you.

Can we go back to discussing the issue? I’m gonna ignore the parts of your comment that were just personal attacks on me, but I’m only gonna do that once.

The UN vote back in 2022 also doesn‘t say anything about international support, it only confirms the international condemnation of the invasion. But you surely also can see the huge yellow parts, right?

Yes I can. I can also see the huge green parts. Considering that you said:

Ukraine has no international goodwill

…I think pointing out that 141 voted in favor of the resolution is a fair rebuttal to your claim. I think it’s possible that when I say “support”, I mean something different than you mean.

Germany is complicit in the genocide and are actively repressing opposition to their own criminality. Further, as if it’s only the German government, that does not recognize the truth about Israel and Palestine, right, not like in the UK people are being arrested left and right for the terrorism of speaking out. The EU sanctions their own journalists. In the US people are getting deported. Hell, they freaking bought TikTok and gave it to a Zionist billionaire to smother uncensored Palestine reporting, by getting a hold of the algorithm, after which it became a right wing pro Israel platform. This also has been openly admitted by, … dunno who it was, Graham or some ghoul.

My underlying point was that the German government was not motivated by malice but by fear of allowing itself to be overcome with antisemitism again, so it’s overcorrecting and now ironically it’s once again, as you say, complicit in genocide. The fact that we agree on the complicity in genocide was what I hoped would form common ground between us, but I think you thought I was trying to justify genocide and, well, now we’re here.

Nobody said that, further bad faithing. You pretend, as if I haven’t explained entirely different dynamics. BuT rUsSiA, sToP lOoKiNg At OuR sO-cAlLeD dEmOcRaCiEs!!!1

I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to say here. Can you rephrase?

But it decided, that it needed to, in order to survive against NATO aggression. It’s not like there’s an undo button. And only denying them their perspective and pretending like NATO is not the most dangerous organization on earth would be quite the unequal measure. Maybe that wouldn‘t have happened, if the Ukrainian fascists didn‘t murder 14.000 of their fellow landsman, just because they were Russian speaking. Who knows. But there’s no reason to ignore reality.

Do you really want to commit to the claim that the only reason that there was a war in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022 was that some Ukrainians wanted to kill other Ukrainians for speaking Russian? That’s really the theory you’re willing to hang your hat on? I’ll debate that point if you want, but I sincerely doubt you actually believe that.

Unfortunately, I didn’t say that “everyone against the West is good”. That’s not even an argument, it’s nothing but an empty phrase. You’ve got nothing. But yes, the West is the bane if humanity. It‘s the main aggressor, exploiter, polluter and oppressor. It‘s a fact. Again, no need to deny reality. The world is moving on, they‘re fed up with it.

I really don’t think any of that is true.

I suspect that part of the reason they’re also taking gold out of Canada is to give themselves plausibility when they say that it’s not a knock against the USA.

Ukraine, scrambling to survive in this unwinnable war they where forced into (by the West)

I rather think that Ukraine was forced into this war when it was attacked. By Russia. And there’s a UN resolution to that effect, which 141 nations, not just NATO, voted for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1

I’m sorry the German government is incapable of recognizing the truth on Israel and Palestine. Obviously it is unwilling to risk allowing antisemitism to rise again, and that’s a valid concern, so I understand why, but I know it must be frustrating for you to not even be allowed to have the conversation.

That doesn’t mean that Russia isn’t targeting civilians in this war. It’s not the good guy. It doesn’t need to be at war with Ukraine. Unfortunately the world is more complicated than “the West is bad and everyone against the West is good”.

All right, well I think I’ve wasted enough of my time on you. Have a nice life.

“I know you are but what am I?”

It shouldn’t be that strange. I’ve demonstrated how… twice.

If a Ukraine “ultra” was going to fantasize about a scenario of that ilk, it would be that Chinese airlines simply stop flying over Russia. That’s what would help Ukraine. A Chinese civilian airliner getting accidentally shot down in Russian airspace wouldn’t really help Ukraine except to encourage Chinese airlines to simply stop flying over Russia, and if that’s the result one is looking for, one would prefer to skip straight to that part and not have the civilian casualties in the first place, since Ukraine depends on international goodwill.

No, I think you’ve neglected to consider the possibility that echodot’s comment was meant to be read at face value: that Ukraine doesn’t want civilians shot down, but it’s not going to sabotage its own war efforts to avoid that scenario either; not when civilians NOT flying into warzones is the easier and more obvious preventative.

Yeah and then they go on to explain how that’s changed.

Do they?

There is no indication that Ukraine is deliberately targeting civilians — even as Russia continues to hit apartment buildings, hospitals, schools and other civilian infrastructure with ballistic missiles and drones. And yet, there is no indication that the rising civilian toll in Russia is causing Kyiv to reconsider its approach.

That’s from pretty far down the article. You seem to think that the last sentence invalidates the rest, but that’s not the argument you started with: you’re the one who says it’s “obvious” that they’re intentionally targeting civilians but then can’t find a source that agrees with you.

It’s also a lie, the same lie that Israel spouts, that they aren’t targeting civilians, lol.

Hey, it’s your article, dude. Maybe you should have read it first.

You’re quite literally burying the lede of that article:

Unlike Moscow, Kyiv has not deliberately tried to kill civilians.

I wonder why you skimmed right past that prominent line at the top of the article. Did you see it and somehow think it wasn’t relevant to the discussion?

Trump doesn’t WANT the dollar to be a reserve currency. Not exactly, anyway.

It’s certainly obvious for Israel, as I’ve demonstrated twice now. Easily, and without needing to be asked.

Who’s fantasizing?

I dunno, I feel like sources are kind of important sometimes, especially when discussing controversial claims.

No, I’m just demonstrating how easy it is to cite sources.

Oh really?

Oh really?

Desperate or vindictive. There was a recent debate over whether the EU should use the money in the Russian accounts it suspended to bankroll Ukraine, because Russia owes Ukraine reparations. One of the reasons that might not be a good idea is that a lot of EU money is in the USA, and with Trump it’s monkey see, monkey do. Except for “the EU should” read “the USA should”, for “Russian accounts” read “EU accounts”, for “bankroll Ukraine” read “line Trump’s pockets”, and for “because Russia owes Ukraine reparations” read “because Trump likes money”.

The problem is, we’ve seen that it does. It’s even double-tapped ambulances.

Bear in mind though, that your instance (in your case, lemmy.world) will bear the cost of storing your .gif, and lemmy.world doesn’t have ad revenue to pay for that like Reddit does. So use .gifs sparingly.

WTF is even the point that you’re trying to argue? That Ukraine should roll over and allow itself to be conquered? I doubt whether that’s the point you’re making, so please explain the underlying point of your argument, because it’s not as self-evident as you seem to think it is.