Yeah, this point about really needing time is pretty real. I recently came to the conclusion that some folks really just need to retake the core courses multiple times (and seeing if we can change this pattern) because it just takes them a long time to unlearn helplessness in the field and adapt.

And absolutely, as you’ve said, I find those who do adapt go from someone taking our most basic course three times to becoming a top student. Those who don’t adapt fall to cheating and/or dropping out. I usually have about 500-800 students per term, and with about 20-30% falling into this category with more each year, one-on-one interventions are rare and you usually only catch them on their second time around once they finally heed our requests to come talk to us.

I’d be curious what other fields work with this so I could go read some papers or other materials on these mindsets, it sounds like there is quite an overlap to what we’ve been experiencing, I appreciate these insights!

Edit: Oh, and adding that I’ve spoken to some researchers in trauma informed education and I imagine the overlap here is high in terms of approach - recognizing how different behaviours can be linked to trauma and considering the approaches that can be taken to ease them back into stronger academic habits. It’s been a while since my talks, but this could spark some more, as I hadn’t quite connected the rote memorizes to this. Seems quite feasible for at least a subset.

Yeah, you can feel it pretty quickly in an interaction. I like how the other comment put it, where it seems like they are stuck in rote memory mode. Having a list of facts in their head but no connections between them, no big picture capability. I recently had a student who seemingly refused to read the six bullet points describing a problem, and couldn’t comprehend that they described requirements, not step-by-step instructions. Without step-by-step instructions, this group flounders, and what should be insignificant details stand out as blockades they can’t get past because they can’t distinguish the roles of the details.

Reasoning blindness is an interesting term for it. Bloom’s taxonomy of learning, which has its controversies, stands out to me here; it’s like they are stuck at recall problems, maybe moving up to understanding a little bit but unable to get into using knowledge in new circumstances, connecting them, or being able to argue points. It works well for certain testing, it’s a great skill to be particularly astute in for many lines of work, but it really is a critical thinking nightmare.

Really great point - purely rote learning is definitely a major piece of this category, if not the category in itself. Basically an inability to move up Bloom’s taxonomy from the first level or two. I very recently spent hours with a student who had this exact issue - they tested well, but couldn’t even begin to do the applied work unless they were walked through it, precisely, step by step. Zero capability of generalizing, but fully capable of absorbing and recollecting facts… just no understanding associated with it. No connections.

That gave me something to think about, thank you!

I was once teaching a student introductory programming when I was in my undergrad.

The problem was to draw two circles on the screen of different colours and detect when the mouse is inside of one.

I said, “So our goal is simple: Let’s draw a circle somewhere on the screen. Consider what you’d tell me as a human - I’ve got the pencil, and you want to tell me to draw a circle of a certain size somewhere on this paper. We have three functions. Calling a function will draw a shape. Each function draws a different shape. We have rect(), circle(), and line(). Which of these sounds like the one we want to use? Which would get me to draw the correct shape?”

“… Rect?” “Why?” “It draws a shape.” “What shape would rect draw?” “I don’t know.” “Guess.” “A circle?” “Why do you think that?” “We need to draw a circle.” “If I said that rect draws a rectangle, which of the three functions would we want to use then, to draw our picture?” “Rect?”

I’ve now been teaching for many years, and those situations still come up a lot. When I put up a poll in class, with the answer still written on the board, about 25% of people in a 100+ student class will get it wrong - of people who were not only admitted to a competitive university program, but have passed multiple prerequisite courses to be here.

Not only is it unknown gaps in knowledge, there is just a thought process I haven’t been able to crack through that some people really can’t see what is immediately before them.

Everything changed when I found the most understanding teachers at the end of my school. I switched schools and had a teacher recognize I was smart and bored and distracted, and she tested me out of the classes and let me spend my time on other random things that were tangentially related and still work with the other students. Game changer compared to where I was where I’d get deductions for doing problems early or reading ahead.

The point on the way to many interests and things, and loving yourself beyond the meds, very important! I found o was regulating myself too much for the first while after diagnosing, and the most relaxation wasn’t what people might typically find relaxing, it was letting the (healthy enough) chaos flow in a safer environment than I was previously prepared to setup.

100%. Great way of putting it. I bounce back forth on occasion, but the trend line is always toward accepting that old part of me, and realizing it’s okay to move on because it’s a very closed chapter that’s been outstaying its welcome. Like any death, you still have those same neural patterns, and they’re slowly getting overwritten, and it’s confusing and disorienting when your muscle memory reaches for something and it’s not there.

It’s extra confusing when what’s reached for is that feeling of not grabbing anything, but you do. When you’ve been falling for decades the ground feels weird for a while when you land.

Hah, yeah, I’m sure I could have taken time to phrase it better.

I definitely feel like a big part of what I’ve grieved is the childhood that I never had, moreso than the future I won’t. It was a big relief, and I felt like I could do well and cut myself slack. I’m just trying to do the same with past me; cut myself that slack, give my past self that love and understanding now that I didn’t get then, accept it was a brutal time, and that it was unfair, but that I’ve grown and learned and stopped rejecting that person was me, and we’re doing all right.

I do think stigma is a part, both your expectations of others and the expectations on yourself. I had a psychiatrist tell me years before my diagnosis that I was “too successful” for ADHD and that pretty much derailed the acceptance for a long time, heh.

Absolutely! Important to recognize you’re not “weird” for not going through this, sometimes it just aligns so well you’re already prepped for it.

I agree to an extent, but also that the parents need to take time to understand how to “gas them up” appropriately. It’s not everyone’s case, but it became very apparent to me when I was young that my parents would cheer me on over anything, and never take any time to learn about the things they were cheering me on over, and that led to disbelieving pretty much any positive feedback from anyone long-term. The only feedback of substance growing up was the very rare negative feedback, because they would only pull it out when they understood it enough to know it needed improving. That, and emphasizing their efforts as the thing to cheer on, not just the end results.

I’ve learned to work through that, and maybe it goes without saying for most people, but being a genuine and substantive cheerleader is important.

I know this is in response to a post saying your ADHD is not other people’s ADHD, but I’m pretty sure your ADHD is my ADHD.

Mainly learning that I did, in fact, have ADHD, Then: medication (Vyvanse); drastically reducing or cutting weed, alcohol, and caffeine; therapy to help deal with childhood issues (which exacerbate symptoms); taking time away from work to start recovering from ADHD-driven burnout and building some structures to support my ADHD in the workplace.

Systems to externalize things. I’ve accepted that if I don’t see something, it isn’t happening, so I try to arrange and organize things in a way that it’s physically out in the world for me. Digital doesn’t work extremely well for me for the most part, except for some work things where it’s all in one place, because digital disappears from existence when the screen turns off.

I hate it, but regular exercise, eating more healthy, and the nights where I can actually sleep are probably the biggest factors in whether I have a good day or not. Not that knowing that is enough, of course.

Oh, and just generally learning what my weaknesses are. I’m still hugely struggling with ADHD overall, but knowing the big weaknesses helps. It’s not about doing what’s easy, it’s about facing what’s hard head-on and accepting it sucks, but you have to go on.

• I struggle with transitioning, so random text messages or having to sporadically decide to move from Task A to Task B is hard/impossible, so I have scheduled socializing and build in transition “rituals” like going for a walk, having lights and TV automatically turn off at set times,
• I get stuck on tasks, so hard rules like “Under no circumstances can you do this after X time” are vital to live by, when you can,
• I don’t notice bodily needs, so practicing meditation and having regular reminders to check-in on myself help to make sure I’ve eaten / drank water / walked around and generally am not hurting my body with whatever weird way I’m sitting,
• I’m terrible with detail-oriented work, so I have workflows specifically designed to reduce the amount of detail-oriented work I need to do,
• I binge a ton of work in short periods and rest for periods, so I moved my career toward flexible scheduling to allow for this, with enough accountability to have deadlines I can’t violate.

I’ll say, one thing that helped me here was starting to see the “depth in the breadth”, so to speak, and recognizing this jumping around for what it was. A lot of novelty seeking and bouncing between hobbies to avoid conscious regulating, which was tiring.

Now, in things that I consider important, I try to find the novelty and breadth that comes with sticking to it for a long time - stare at a hobby / occupation long enough to see the big world inside of it and realize it’s more than you can take in and take time to put up some blinders so you can hone in there and see it as lots of cool novel things within a smaller space.

Also, realizing that bouncing around to all kinds of things… well, that’s my form of relaxing. If I’m totally depleted, chances are what I need isn’t to sit in one place and “rest”, or to focus on one thing, it’s to schedule time to completely not focus on one thing and allow myself to bounce all over the place and do whatever feels good (within responsible limits). It’s usually a chaotic mess that amounts to no long-term benefit, but it’s much more resting that trying to relax. Trying was the problem, after all.

Yeah! Not beating yourself up over this is really important, same with not overthinking it. Some days are hard, some are less hard, some, I’ve heard, are easy.

Some days the best progress/discipline is noticing it’s a day where you need your own compassion to admit you need to let yourself off the hook for a bit.

It’s a good start to a long path :) I’m not a doctor of medicine, and not medical advice, but I know it was really helpful for me when I started recognizing I was on a path to helping myself, not the ADHD, not the trauma, not whatever else it may be diagnosed as, but me, my experiences, my patterns, my brain.

The labels can be helpful for seeing, noticing, understanding, approaching, and getting medical support where needed, but ultimately it’s great that the symptoms were validated, and congrats on taking the steps! It’s hard work to identify the need, hard work to reach out and get support, and it means you’re very likely on a good path.

The remembral is really smart! I might need to find a way that works for me for that one.

Being really open is also great; radical authenticity and openness (with those it’s appropriate and comfortable) has helped me learn and help others, and gotten acceptance from people I’d struggled with. “Let’s assume I’ve been living underground for a while, how exactly do you go about X, if you’re comfortable answering?” Also great for those with absent/developmentally lacking childhood experiences.

Yeah, a lot of my systems have been built up by noticing bad patterns and finding easier alternatives. A frozen curry that takes 10 minutes of effort tops, with pre-made masala paste - it may not be the most satisfying, but it’s costing me about $4, I’ll be eating in less time than ordering in, and I won’t get stuck looking at menus for an hour.

Yeah, I fortunately had a magic bullet (not great for it, but works) from years ago I received as a gift. The other comment nailed it; any time I’ve added water, it’s been bland. While milk, some yogurts, and a healthy mix of fruits is really flavourful, and it might throw the texture, but the oats and spinach add a night nutrient punch.