How bad it is depends on where you live, but yeah, for a lot of reasons most of the world probably shouldn’t have outdoor housecats. As the article you linked pointed out though, most of the damage is being done by feral cats, and well… that cat’s out of the bag, so to speak.
Feral cat populations are created and maintained by outdoor non-feral cats. Lots of people who don’t keep their cats indoors also don’t get their cats fixed either.
Created yes. Maintained not so much. Feral cats can make more feral cats on their own just fine. In fact, outdoor housecats are really bad for feral cats, because they hunt prey, fight for territory, and contribute to overpopulation of small predators without having to deal with the constant dangers that an actual feral cat does.
“So, we set coyotes loose to catch the cats. Then what? We get a wolf to eat the coyotes? Then we get a tiger to eat the wolf!? WHAT EATS THE TIGER, DAD - TELL ME THAT!”
I mean you are partially right. Bringing back wolves would help in NA. They are supposed to be a part of the ecosystem and might help keep coyotes in check to a degree at least and would certainly keep killer deer population is n check. They were eliminated more out of fear than legitimate threat and killer deer have now far exceeded human threat compared to wolves.
I don’t understand your point. I’m saying the effects of an inhospitable winter environment does quite a bit of the dirty work for keeping feral cat populations in check. Were you agreeing with me?
Yep, I can’t believe the hypocrisy either, pretty much all major cities require that dogs be on a leash or in a yard. Cats though? Can’t have them on a leash! Are you crazy!?! 😱
Yeah, dogs tend to have larger territories than cats when allowed to free-roam, so cats have an easier time adapting a smaller space, hence why they tend to make better apartment pets. Feral cat colonies (which are caused and maintained by non-feral outdoor cats that haven’t been fixed) are also larger on average than feral dog packs when they form, amplifying their negative effects on the local ecosystem further. Free roaming cats also have a huge environmental impact, are a major threat to native wildlife, and are the most invasive species in the world. While free-roam dogs do hunt and do also have an impact on the environment, they don’t kill native animals on the same scale as cats. Cats will kill even if they’re not hungry and don’t intend to eat, and free roam cats eat more often in a day than free roam dogs do (up to ~12 times a day for cats, while dogs might eat once a day or even once every 2 to 3 days depending on food availability). Even more reason why we should keep both dogs AND cats inside.
If you want to give your cat more space to work with then leash training, catios, and cat-proof yards are great options! In my neighbourhood a lot of people tie their cats out on leads in their front yards as well. Everything we do for dogs to give them more space without letting them roam free we can do for cats as well, because even though they’re different animals, they’re both capable of being trained, supervised, or kept in some sort of enclosure.
Dogs kill 25,000 people annually. How many do housecats kill? It’s not a 1-to-1 comparison.
My cat throws herself through the doorway as soon as anyone gets home. She will chew through window screens. She breaks the catio whenever we put it up. If we don’t let her out, she will scream non-stop all night. She will fight with the other animals. She will resent us if we don’t let her out. When, not if, she does get out, she’ll stay away for longer if we haven’t been letting her out. She’ll disappear for days.
Meanwhile, if I let her out, she will usually sit on the patio or patrol the yard at night. She kills vermin such as voles, moles, and rats. She is territorial about our yard such that she has managed to push the colony of feral cats out of my yard. She gets regular checkups along with flea and tick treatment. She is 14 and happier than she’s ever been. I’m going to let her live her best life.
I don’t see what that has to do with anything. I’m not saying dogs should be allowed to roam free while cats are kept inside. I’m saying they BOTH shouldn’t be allowed to wander freely. Dogs being a danger to humans is just another reason why. I’m just listing some of the reasons why cats also shouldn’t be allowed to free roam. Danger to humans isn’t the only reason to keep an animal indoors or in an enclosure unless on a leash or supervised.
Dogs also become destructive when kept inside without being exercised or entertained. Dog owners are expected to provide those things instead of just letting their dogs roam loose around the neighbourhood to entertain themselves. Your cat isn’t some super special exception among cats who never kills any native animals that aren’t pests. You can cat-proof your yard to provide a safe outdoor space for her, or leash train her and take her on regular walks to drain her energy and satisfy her desire to roam, or make her an enclosure that she can stay in outside without being given complete unsupervised freedom, but of course those solutions would all take actual effort. So it’s up to you to decide, would you rather put in the effort to provide an appropriate environment for your pet, including enrichment and training and exercise, like dog owners are expected to do? Or would you rather shrug and toss your cat outside to contend with cars, coyotes, and all manner of toxic plants and chemicals and diseases and parasites, and allow her to continue to contribute to the destruction of the local ecosystem?
Because it’s not really about what makes your cat happy, that’s just the easiest excuse to convince yourself that you don’t have to change things. After all, if you did your due diligence she could be both happy and safe, and living her best life without having to be let outside unsupervised. What it’s really about is whether you’re willing to put in the work to make that happen as a responsible pet owner.
Dogs can’t because they present a danger to humans. That’s the clear difference.
I’m not just being difficult. My wife was a trainer at the human society for years. We know the stuff and have tried to do it. I value my cat more then wild birds and rodents, and my wife does taxidermy for whatever she brings back.
My cat broke her first harness, slipped out of her second, and now she flails whenever we try to come near her with a harness. We’ve tried walking, but she refuses to move. You don’t know my cat, and you don’t seem to realize that this won’t make her happy.
Local ecosystem destruction is a moot argument because we had multiple feral cats in our yard every night when we moved in, and now we have none. We have fewer cats total in our yard.
At the end of the day, she’s 14 and will start slowing down soon. If she dies, she lived a great life. My last outdoor cat was 20 years old. I get long living cats who are happy by just letting them be cats.
Birds and people are not the same BUT ANIMAL LIVES STILL HAVE VALUE. The life of a bird IS NOT WORTH NOTHING, just because your life is worth more by some metric you can’t explain.
I think you should talk to someone about your raging solipsism. The experiences of animals are real and matter. Their suffering is identical in nature to your own. Or that of your cat, when they end up eviscerated.
I agree cats shouldn’t be let out roam freely like that anywhere and anytime but it’s better cats than dogs. Cats in general are smaller and less aggressive to humans. Like how many large dogs you could find in 100 dogs and how many big cats you could find in same amount of cats?
You are saying my 10 pound cat who avoids people while killing the voles that plague my yard should follow the same rules my 85 pound golden retriever with stranger danger anxiety does?
Funny you should say that because there’s a cat that’s attacking people (including a kid), dogs and cats in a neighborhood around where I live and authorities are saying “Can’t do anything about it, people are free to let their cat roam free and it’s registered so it’s not considered a stray 🤷”
That is pretty funny to think about. Dangerous, but amusing.
I know when my cat bites my partner for food or attention she just let’s him do it. Then she’ll freak out all flustered, I’m like ya your literally letting him do it. Throw him out of the bathroom ffs!
Or, or, or – instead of doing that fucking absurd thing you suggested to try to ignore the valid points other people are making, we deal with them the same way we deal with other ecologically disastrousinvasive species.
Are we really getting the indoor cat brigade on lemmy too? Yes, in the US outdoor cats are a danger to local wildlife. Stop pushing this on people who this does not apply to. Outdoor cats are fine in many other parts of the world. The USA isn’t the whole world.
Suggesting or thinking that this issue only applies to cats in USA / North America is uninformed at best.
Australia has ~650 million lizards killed each year by feral and outdoor cats, ~225/cat
As of 2013, Canada has 100-350 million birds killed by cats each year
As of 2021, China estimates based on public survey’s that “1.61–4.95 billion invertebrates, 1.61–3.58 billion fishes, 1.13–3.82 billion amphibians, 1.48–4.31 billion reptiles, 2.69–5.52 billion birds, and 3.61–9.80 billion mammals” there each year"
Cats and other vermin are absolutely destroying native populations in New Zealand as all of the birds there evolved with essentially no native predators.
South Africa, Cape Town alone estimates that 300k cats kill 27.5m critters each year
This is not unique to the states. Keep your cats inside.
Not to mention like in Europe multiple species of native small cats are being pushed out and outbred by feral and outdoor cats
Keep your moggies inside for their sake people! Also for, y’know, all the birds and small mammals killed by them and the fact that your pet can pick up some goddawful diseases from being outdoors and still have a shorter life expectancy than indoor ones
Honestly for me the risk of them getting severely injured in a cat fight or getting hit by a car is enough for them to be strictly “indoor cats” unless they are on a leash with a well fit harness.
Tbh I can’t believe we’re at a point where “keep your cats inside they live longer and don’t risk infection or injury or death” is straight up not enough to convince people to keep their pets which they love and cherish inside. Like I admit I’m biased - I’m a bird person and my main stake in this argument is the local wildlife. But at the same time…it’s kinda ridiculous that people would rather risk all that than bother to entertain and interact with and exercise their cats like you would with most other pets?
Outdoor cats should be illegal
https://daily.jstor.org/environmental-danger-outdoor-cats/
How bad it is depends on where you live, but yeah, for a lot of reasons most of the world probably shouldn’t have outdoor housecats. As the article you linked pointed out though, most of the damage is being done by feral cats, and well… that cat’s out of the bag, so to speak.
Feral cat populations are created and maintained by outdoor non-feral cats. Lots of people who don’t keep their cats indoors also don’t get their cats fixed either.
This doesn’t work as a general argument against having an outdoor cat, because you can just have them fixed.
Many people don’t have them fixed unfortunately.
Created yes. Maintained not so much. Feral cats can make more feral cats on their own just fine. In fact, outdoor housecats are really bad for feral cats, because they hunt prey, fight for territory, and contribute to overpopulation of small predators without having to deal with the constant dangers that an actual feral cat does.
then we should set out a bunch of coyotes,
to keep the feral cat population in check.
what could possibly go wrong?
Sure, we could try it in Australia first. They love that kind of thing. It always goes great for them.
Nah the coyotes would just all get eaten by the spiders
Australia already has dingos, which are like coyotes except they eat babies instead of cats.
You paint a whole house and nobody calls you a painter, but you eat one baby…
“So, we set coyotes loose to catch the cats. Then what? We get a wolf to eat the coyotes? Then we get a tiger to eat the wolf!? WHAT EATS THE TIGER, DAD - TELL ME THAT!”
I mean you are partially right. Bringing back wolves would help in NA. They are supposed to be a part of the ecosystem and might help keep coyotes in check to a degree at least and would certainly keep killer deer population is n check. They were eliminated more out of fear than legitimate threat and killer deer have now far exceeded human threat compared to wolves.
China
In Minnesota, we let five months of inhospitable winter do the dirty work for us.
I’ve got bad news if you think cats don’t survive winter… And I’m living in a more northern region too…
It definitely culls our local population.
Or there is just more predation in the winter, more starvation, or more car strikes; you don’t know it’s the cold
I don’t understand your point. I’m saying the effects of an inhospitable winter environment does quite a bit of the dirty work for keeping feral cat populations in check. Were you agreeing with me?
I like the way you think
The number of birds killed by cats per year matches ironically the number of animals us humans kill per day for food if we include marine animals. 😄
Yep, I can’t believe the hypocrisy either, pretty much all major cities require that dogs be on a leash or in a yard. Cats though? Can’t have them on a leash! Are you crazy!?! 😱
It’s almost like cats and dogs are different animals or something.
Yeah, dogs tend to have larger territories than cats when allowed to free-roam, so cats have an easier time adapting a smaller space, hence why they tend to make better apartment pets. Feral cat colonies (which are caused and maintained by non-feral outdoor cats that haven’t been fixed) are also larger on average than feral dog packs when they form, amplifying their negative effects on the local ecosystem further. Free roaming cats also have a huge environmental impact, are a major threat to native wildlife, and are the most invasive species in the world. While free-roam dogs do hunt and do also have an impact on the environment, they don’t kill native animals on the same scale as cats. Cats will kill even if they’re not hungry and don’t intend to eat, and free roam cats eat more often in a day than free roam dogs do (up to ~12 times a day for cats, while dogs might eat once a day or even once every 2 to 3 days depending on food availability). Even more reason why we should keep both dogs AND cats inside.
If you want to give your cat more space to work with then leash training, catios, and cat-proof yards are great options! In my neighbourhood a lot of people tie their cats out on leads in their front yards as well. Everything we do for dogs to give them more space without letting them roam free we can do for cats as well, because even though they’re different animals, they’re both capable of being trained, supervised, or kept in some sort of enclosure.
Dogs kill 25,000 people annually. How many do housecats kill? It’s not a 1-to-1 comparison.
My cat throws herself through the doorway as soon as anyone gets home. She will chew through window screens. She breaks the catio whenever we put it up. If we don’t let her out, she will scream non-stop all night. She will fight with the other animals. She will resent us if we don’t let her out. When, not if, she does get out, she’ll stay away for longer if we haven’t been letting her out. She’ll disappear for days.
Meanwhile, if I let her out, she will usually sit on the patio or patrol the yard at night. She kills vermin such as voles, moles, and rats. She is territorial about our yard such that she has managed to push the colony of feral cats out of my yard. She gets regular checkups along with flea and tick treatment. She is 14 and happier than she’s ever been. I’m going to let her live her best life.
I don’t see what that has to do with anything. I’m not saying dogs should be allowed to roam free while cats are kept inside. I’m saying they BOTH shouldn’t be allowed to wander freely. Dogs being a danger to humans is just another reason why. I’m just listing some of the reasons why cats also shouldn’t be allowed to free roam. Danger to humans isn’t the only reason to keep an animal indoors or in an enclosure unless on a leash or supervised.
Dogs also become destructive when kept inside without being exercised or entertained. Dog owners are expected to provide those things instead of just letting their dogs roam loose around the neighbourhood to entertain themselves. Your cat isn’t some super special exception among cats who never kills any native animals that aren’t pests. You can cat-proof your yard to provide a safe outdoor space for her, or leash train her and take her on regular walks to drain her energy and satisfy her desire to roam, or make her an enclosure that she can stay in outside without being given complete unsupervised freedom, but of course those solutions would all take actual effort. So it’s up to you to decide, would you rather put in the effort to provide an appropriate environment for your pet, including enrichment and training and exercise, like dog owners are expected to do? Or would you rather shrug and toss your cat outside to contend with cars, coyotes, and all manner of toxic plants and chemicals and diseases and parasites, and allow her to continue to contribute to the destruction of the local ecosystem?
Because it’s not really about what makes your cat happy, that’s just the easiest excuse to convince yourself that you don’t have to change things. After all, if you did your due diligence she could be both happy and safe, and living her best life without having to be let outside unsupervised. What it’s really about is whether you’re willing to put in the work to make that happen as a responsible pet owner.
Dogs can’t because they present a danger to humans. That’s the clear difference.
I’m not just being difficult. My wife was a trainer at the human society for years. We know the stuff and have tried to do it. I value my cat more then wild birds and rodents, and my wife does taxidermy for whatever she brings back.
My cat broke her first harness, slipped out of her second, and now she flails whenever we try to come near her with a harness. We’ve tried walking, but she refuses to move. You don’t know my cat, and you don’t seem to realize that this won’t make her happy.
Local ecosystem destruction is a moot argument because we had multiple feral cats in our yard every night when we moved in, and now we have none. We have fewer cats total in our yard.
At the end of the day, she’s 14 and will start slowing down soon. If she dies, she lived a great life. My last outdoor cat was 20 years old. I get long living cats who are happy by just letting them be cats.
You’re right, dogs don’t kill billions of birds a year!
Birds and people are the same, so I see your point
Birds and people are not the same BUT ANIMAL LIVES STILL HAVE VALUE. The life of a bird IS NOT WORTH NOTHING, just because your life is worth more by some metric you can’t explain.
My cat is far more than literally thousands of wild birds to me. It’s either let my cat play outside or put her down. What do you think I should do?
I think you should talk to someone about your raging solipsism. The experiences of animals are real and matter. Their suffering is identical in nature to your own. Or that of your cat, when they end up eviscerated.
I agree cats shouldn’t be let out roam freely like that anywhere and anytime but it’s better cats than dogs. Cats in general are smaller and less aggressive to humans. Like how many large dogs you could find in 100 dogs and how many big cats you could find in same amount of cats?
It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Neither should be allowed to roam freely.
Do you know the difference between being taken for a walk and living outside? It doesn’t sound like you do
How does that not apply to dogs then?
Again, pure hypocrisy from cat owners.
You’re a moron, no one has advocated for outdoor cats.
But you trying to suggest walking feral cats on a leash is one of the dumbest things I’ll read all month.
They didn’t say anything about feral cats, they were replying to a comment about outdoor cats.
And yet outdoor cats still live outdoors…they aren’t being walked.
Okay? We’re saying that they should be taken out on leashes instead of being allowed to roam, just like with dogs.
I’m a moron? Read the thread again, people are advocating for letting pet cats roam free and I never suggested “walking feral cats on a leash”.
let’s arrest cats living as cats!
Alright then, people should be allowed to let their dog be free so they can live as dogs.
Also, people aren’t allowed to adopt cats anymore and house cats need to be exterminated on the American continent and in Oceania.
You know… So cats live as cats historically did?
You are saying my 10 pound cat who avoids people while killing the voles that plague my yard should follow the same rules my 85 pound golden retriever with stranger danger anxiety does?
Funny you should say that because there’s a cat that’s attacking people (including a kid), dogs and cats in a neighborhood around where I live and authorities are saying “Can’t do anything about it, people are free to let their cat roam free and it’s registered so it’s not considered a stray 🤷”
That is pretty funny to think about. Dangerous, but amusing.
I know when my cat bites my partner for food or attention she just let’s him do it. Then she’ll freak out all flustered, I’m like ya your literally letting him do it. Throw him out of the bathroom ffs!
In this case a kid and an adult had to go to the hospital and a dog to the vet.
It’s very aggressive and they can’t identify the owner because they can’t approach it!
That cat better be the size of a cougar
Can i rent your cat? Fucking voles. Actually I think mine are full on moles. Maybe if cat is hungry enough though??
Worth a shot. That’s why domestic cats exist.
Or, or, or – instead of doing that fucking absurd thing you suggested to try to ignore the valid points other people are making, we deal with them the same way we deal with other ecologically disastrous invasive species.
Are we really getting the indoor cat brigade on lemmy too? Yes, in the US outdoor cats are a danger to local wildlife. Stop pushing this on people who this does not apply to. Outdoor cats are fine in many other parts of the world. The USA isn’t the whole world.
Suggesting or thinking that this issue only applies to cats in USA / North America is uninformed at best.
Australia has ~650 million lizards killed each year by feral and outdoor cats, ~225/cat
As of 2013, Canada has 100-350 million birds killed by cats each year
As of 2021, China estimates based on public survey’s that “1.61–4.95 billion invertebrates, 1.61–3.58 billion fishes, 1.13–3.82 billion amphibians, 1.48–4.31 billion reptiles, 2.69–5.52 billion birds, and 3.61–9.80 billion mammals” there each year"
Cats and other vermin are absolutely destroying native populations in New Zealand as all of the birds there evolved with essentially no native predators.
South Africa, Cape Town alone estimates that 300k cats kill 27.5m critters each year
This is not unique to the states. Keep your cats inside.
Not to mention like in Europe multiple species of native small cats are being pushed out and outbred by feral and outdoor cats
Keep your moggies inside for their sake people! Also for, y’know, all the birds and small mammals killed by them and the fact that your pet can pick up some goddawful diseases from being outdoors and still have a shorter life expectancy than indoor ones
Honestly for me the risk of them getting severely injured in a cat fight or getting hit by a car is enough for them to be strictly “indoor cats” unless they are on a leash with a well fit harness.
Tbh I can’t believe we’re at a point where “keep your cats inside they live longer and don’t risk infection or injury or death” is straight up not enough to convince people to keep their pets which they love and cherish inside. Like I admit I’m biased - I’m a bird person and my main stake in this argument is the local wildlife. But at the same time…it’s kinda ridiculous that people would rather risk all that than bother to entertain and interact with and exercise their cats like you would with most other pets?